The Official English Rugby Thread

[Paddington Bear]

I'm no fan of those attacked, but all the people in the twit-verse blaming Sweeney, the RFU, etc. ... is that fair, or have these clubs mostly fucked it themselves? Where's the logic in paying one player 500k when the salary cap is 5 mil? It's not basketball, ffs. It also sounded like perennial basement dwellers typically spent up to the cap, so paying average players the same as world class studs at perennial contenders? But I guess the threat of going down contributes to the arms race?

I don't think anyone comes out covered in glory.
Sweeney is a clown on so many levels but blame for this is hard to pin at his door.

[Raggs]

As our youth club is covered by London Irish, and we currently have a boy who's represented (ing?) Eng u20s who's just signed an academy contract with them, it's rather close to the bone even not as a supporter.

[Glaston]

I'm no fan of those attacked, but all the people in the twit-verse blaming Sweeney, the RFU, etc. ... is that fair, or have these clubs mostly fucked it themselves? Where's the logic in paying one player 500k when the salary cap is 5 mil? It's not basketball, ffs. It also sounded like perennial basement dwellers typically spent up to the cap, so paying average players the same as world class studs at perennial contenders? But I guess the threat of going down contributes to the arms race?

Bath are supposedly paying Finn Russell 1million/year
Piutau was on really big money at Bristol and Pollard at Leicester is listed as being likely the highest paid player in Europe.

I know they are outside the salary cap but chucking big amounts at some players has got to push up wage demands from other top players.

[sockwithaticket]

I'm no fan of those attacked, but all the people in the twit-verse blaming Sweeney, the RFU, etc. ... is that fair, or have these clubs mostly fucked it themselves? Where's the logic in paying one player 500k when the salary cap is 5 mil? It's not basketball, ffs. It also sounded like perennial basement dwellers typically spent up to the cap, so paying average players the same as world class studs at perennial contenders? But I guess the threat of going down contributes to the arms race?

Yep. One of many reasons I don't like relegation. Any club with the intention of remaining a top flight entity felt the need to spend the same as everyone else, regardless of it's sustainability.

[Jock42]

At what point are players free to sign for another club?

[Margin__Walker]

As our youth club is covered by London Irish, and we currently have a boy who's represented (ing?) Eng u20s who's just signed an academy contract with them, it's rather close to the bone even not as a supporter.

Rory Taylor?

Eng U18 so far, not U20 yet. He's a real prospect, so should get picked up somewhere. Some of the rest of that intake may really struggle though

[Raggs]

As our youth club is covered by London Irish, and we currently have a boy who's represented (ing?) Eng u20s who's just signed an academy contract with them, it's rather close to the bone even not as a supporter.

Rory Taylor?

Eng U18 so far, not U20 yet. He's a real prospect, so should get picked up somewhere. Some of the rest of that intake may really struggle though

Yeah, got the age wrong. Signed a contract 2 weeks ago I believe, probably just before the shit hit the fan. We've got a few others in their pipelines, they have a satellite training group in southampton, which does a lot of good for us. RFU have said they'll take it over and keep it running if needed, but who knows.

[Margin__Walker]

As our youth club is covered by London Irish, and we currently have a boy who's represented (ing?) Eng u20s who's just signed an academy contract with them, it's rather close to the bone even not as a supporter.

Rory Taylor?

Eng U18 so far, not U20 yet. He's a real prospect, so should get picked up somewhere. Some of the rest of that intake may really struggle though

Yeah, got the age wrong. Signed a contract 2 weeks ago I believe, probably just before the shit hit the fan. We've got a few others in their pipelines, they have a satellite training group in southampton, which does a lot of good for us. RFU have said they'll take it over and keep it running if needed, but who knows.

Yeah, there's a DPP centre there. It's the only one in Hampshire, so should hopefully be kept on under RFU management. There was another lad in that intake, Charlie Moss (SCO U18 lock) who was signed to pro terms from the Midlands Central ex Wasps academy the RFU run. This shit has happened to him twice in one season.

[SaintK]

Really shit news, feel for the club and fans.

Yep.....................absolutely!!

[JM2K6]

It's dreadful news and I can't imagine how I'd feel if the same happened to Quins. Under no illusions about the health of any club.

Feels mad that beyond the grief and anger it's largely being met with a resigned shrug and an expectation of business as usual next season, just with fewer teams.

[Margin__Walker]

It's dreadful news and I can't imagine how I'd feel if the same happened to Quins. Under no illusions about the health of any club.

Feels mad that beyond the grief and anger it's largely being met with a resigned shrug and an expectation of business as usual next season, just with fewer teams.

It's a really odd feeling. Have been resigned to it for a while and have other stuff going on at the moment, but it still hit me hard last night. The club has been part of my life for so long. Started going to games with my old man back in 90-91 at Sunbury and never looked back. Was always one of those rugby fans who actually cared about how my club were doing far more than England. The start of next season will be really strange.

The challenging thing for the PRL is that they are losing fans and engagement as part of this. Very few Wasps, Worcester and LI fans are going to just going to pitch up at Gloucester, Leicester or Quins next season. They're just going to drift away from the elite club game. Hopefully there's meaningful change coming down the line for the much vaunted reset in 24-25. I'd also like to think the we're the last. If another club hits a wall, especially in a geographically important area for the league, you'd hope there would be some kind of bail out of sorts to stop another set of fans, players and staff going through this.

[Kawazaki]

It's dreadful news and I can't imagine how I'd feel if the same happened to Quins. Under no illusions about the health of any club.

Feels mad that beyond the grief and anger it's largely being met with a resigned shrug and an expectation of business as usual next season, just with fewer teams.

To be honest, it's a miracle it's lasted as long as it has. The RFU have shown little to no leadership at all since professionalism started in 1995/6 to shape and manage the top end of English domestic rugby. In fact, what little input they have made her often been a hindrance to the appeal and commercial viability of professional rugby. In some ways that is probably just as well because had the RFU taken a firm grip on things then there would likely only have been four English professional teams feeding into the national team much like the Welsh model.

I can't see how the Premiership can survive with CVC taking 27% out every year. In fact, I've got no idea what CVC are doing with that shareholding.

[sockwithaticket]

It's dreadful news and I can't imagine how I'd feel if the same happened to Quins. Under no illusions about the health of any club.

Feels mad that beyond the grief and anger it's largely being met with a resigned shrug and an expectation of business as usual next season, just with fewer teams.

To be honest, it's a miracle it's lasted as long as it has. The RFU have shown little to no leadership at all since professionalism started in 1995/6 to shape and manage the top end of English domestic rugby. In fact, what little input they have made her often been a hindrance to the appeal and commercial viability of professional rugby. In some ways that is probably just as well because had the RFU taken a firm grip on things then there would likely only have been four English professional teams feeding into the national team much like the Welsh model.

I can't see how the Premiership can survive with CVC taking 27% out every year. In fact, I've got no idea what CVC are doing with that shareholding.

Leeching 'til they get their initial investment back and then they'll continue to leech until someone buys them out or the league goes bust.

[I like neeps]

It's dreadful news and I can't imagine how I'd feel if the same happened to Quins. Under no illusions about the health of any club.

Feels mad that beyond the grief and anger it's largely being met with a resigned shrug and an expectation of business as usual next season, just with fewer teams.

It's a really odd feeling. Have been resigned to it for a while and have other stuff going on at the moment, but it still hit me hard last night. The club has been part of my life for so long. Started going to games with my old man back in 90-91 at Sunbury and never looked back. Was always one of those rugby fans who actually cared about how my club were doing far more than England. The start of next season will be really strange.

The challenging thing for the PRL is that they are losing fans and engagement as part of this. Very few Wasps, Worcester and LI fans are going to just going to pitch up at Gloucester, Leicester or Quins next season. They're just going to drift away from the elite club game. Hopefully there's meaningful change coming down the line for the much vaunted reset in 24-25. I'd also like to think the we're the last. If another club hits a wall, especially in a geographically important area for the league, you'd hope there would be some kind of bail out of sorts to stop another set of fans, players and staff going through this.

I was very to hear the news Margin, always enjoyed your posts about the exiles at LI. Sorry that's you've lost the club.

I see the RFU are setting up a benevolent fund, could they set up the benevolent fund as a team/staff to take on players who would access it's support? Stabilise the league a bit.

[sockwithaticket]

I hope the DoRs and CEOs very publicly making it known after Wasps and Worcester collapsed that they want a 10 team league get bad cases of hemorrhoids and stub their toes in perpetuity.

The BT deal's up soon isn't it? I'll be amazed if PRL can negotiate it for the same value as the current one with fewer teams and games.

Even well run clubs are going to feel the hit of 3 fewer home games.

It's dreadful news and I can't imagine how I'd feel if the same happened to Quins. Under no illusions about the health of any club.

Feels mad that beyond the grief and anger it's largely being met with a resigned shrug and an expectation of business as usual next season, just with fewer teams.

It's a really odd feeling. Have been resigned to it for a while and have other stuff going on at the moment, but it still hit me hard last night. The club has been part of my life for so long. Started going to games with my old man back in 90-91 at Sunbury and never looked back. Was always one of those rugby fans who actually cared about how my club were doing far more than England. The start of next season will be really strange.

The challenging thing for the PRL is that they are losing fans and engagement as part of this. Very few Wasps, Worcester and LI fans are going to just going to pitch up at Gloucester, Leicester or Quins next season. They're just going to drift away from the elite club game. Hopefully there's meaningful change coming down the line for the much vaunted reset in 24-25. I'd also like to think the we're the last. If another club hits a wall, especially in a geographically important area for the league, you'd hope there would be some kind of bail out of sorts to stop another set of fans, players and staff going through this.

Commiserations, Margin.

The bolded is very much correct. I'll probably watch games next season, but it won't be appointment viewing as it's been for me for so many years and I won't be purchasing any from PRTV.

[Paddington Bear]

Crossan is not coming out well from this:

When London Irish confirmed their move from the unloved Madejski Stadium in Reading to closer to their spiritual south-west London home in Brentford in 2018, it was heralded as a new dawn for the club.

“In moving we’re confident we’ll attract a larger supporter base to join us,” then president Mick Crossan said. “I would like to thank the London Irish Board of Directors, current and past, for their hard work in steering the realisation of the London Irish vision and securing the financial stability of the club.”

Alas, it secured neither the larger supporter base nor the financial stability that Crossan envisioned. The terms of playing at the Gtech Brentford Community Stadium were far more generous than at the Madejski, which is why they paid Reading FC to enact their break clause.

It was a better location, the most accessible of any Premiership club, with great facilities, but as tenants Irish were always going to remain vulnerable to any financial crosswinds.

Which is exactly what happened when the Covid-19 pandemic hit, forcing the club to play matches behind closed doors at their shiny new stadium while paying prohibitive rent. Remarkably, Irish were operating one of the Premiership’s largest wage bills at the time accounting for marquee players and credits.

Adam Coleman, a decent but by no means remarkable Australian second row, joined the club on a reported £900,000, making him one of the entire league’s highest paid players.

It was a largesse that even Crossan, whose fortune has been estimated at around £50 million after founding Powerday, the waste and recycling management company, was struggling to afford. Last summer as it became increasingly clear that simultaneous crises were unfolding at Worcester Warriors and Wasps, whispers also started growing around Irish’s future.

This was confirmed when Crossan gave an interview to the Mail on Sunday in which he confirmed he was not just looking to sell the club but was prepared to give it away for free. “If anyone’s looking to buy a rugby club with its own training ground and P shares then they don’t even have to buy it,” Crossan said. “For me, at my age, it’s most probably the right time for me to say that I’ve done what I set out to do. I think I’ve done my bit. The club is on a good footing, with a great academy.”

Other owners within the Premiership had valued their ‘P’ shares, which entitles a club to the central income from the Rugby Football Union and broadcasting funding, at around £20 million.

Their 63-acre training complex in Hazelwood, just around the corner from their charming old Sunbury training ground, is as high class as any in the Premiership and frequently hosted NFL teams visiting for the London games.

Yet what should have been the deal of the century did not attract a stampede of prospective buyers. The club were loaded with £30 million of debt without the fixed asset of a stadium to compensate.

This is where the American consortium emerged as potential white knights. Details were – and still remain – incredibly sketchy. Howard Thomas, a former chief executive of Premiership Rugby, appears to have made the initial approach; listed as the managing director of Redstrike which claims to have expertise in rugby’s development markets.

Redstrike have links to 777 Partners, an American private equity group recently linked with a takeover of Everton FC.

Yet Thomas appeared to be acting for another American consortium which Telegraph Sport revealed was headed by Alfred ‘Chip’ Sloan, a former sports agent and lawyer. Sloan had previously inquired about buying into Saracens but was quickly rebuffed by the club. Simon Massie-Taylor, the chief executive of Premiership Rugby, even hailed the American interest as a “positive news story”.

Discussions started around the turn of the year but at nearly every turn the consortium failed to make good on its pledges with the RFU Club Financial Viability Group, which has to approve any takeover, waiting in vain for the most basic of documentation.

At the same time, it became known that Crossan was only willing to fund Irish through March. The club were four days late paying the players their April payroll, although they sought to explain this delay with the ‘cheque’s in the post’ excuse of the Bank Holiday.

The squad, who were prepared to hand in breach-of-contract letters, played their final match of the season against Exeter Chiefs and finished fifth in the league, their highest position in 14 years. It is a testament to the coaching ability of Declan Kidney and the resilience of the squad that they were able to perform so consistently with so much uncertainty in the background.

With a takeover adding to distractions off the pitch, the players sealed an excellent campaign finishing fifth in the league CREDIT: Getty Images/Grant Winter
A bigger battle remained. Tired of the incessant delays and fearful of the saga dragging into the summer, the RFU set a deadline of May 30 for the takeover to be completed. This deadline was moved 24 hours and then, after Crossan agreed to pay 50 per cent of the May payroll, another week – to Tuesday June 6. An internal email sent to the players stated that the remainder would be paid “immediately (once) the funds drop in from the Americans, which is expected imminently”.

Yet on Tuesday, Crossan and the Americans, however serious their actual intentions, ran out of road for their can-kicking exercise.

Irish’s bright new dawn has now turned to darkness.

[Margin__Walker]

Cheers all.

It's such a challenge. You've got 27% of your income skimmed off the top before you do anything. You're then all paying back c10m+ covid loans and have salary costs that are a mad ratio of turnover. Increased central revenue will probably be eaten by the loss of home games. How on earth do you break even in that environment without slashing player costs? Your one shot is some sort of bidding war materialising for the TV rights for 24-25 onwards. That doesn't seem particularly likely.

Having a super rich investor led model only works when there is a queue of serious new investors looking to get involved and the last 12 months has proved that there absolutely aren't.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Cheers all.

It's such a challenge. You've got 27% of your income skimmed off the top before you do anything. You're then all paying back c10m+ covid loans and have salary costs that are a mad ratio of turnover. Increased central revenue will probably be eaten by the loss of home games. How on earth do you break even in that environment without slashing player costs? Your one shot is some sort of bidding war materialising for the TV rights for 24-25 onwards. That doesn't seem particularly likely.

Having a super rich investor led model only works when there is a queue of serious new investors looking to get involved and the last 12 months has proved that there absolutely aren't.

Damn shame.

I really enjoyed my two trips to Brentford to watch Irish v Quins which resulted it 2 right hammerings, one each way. A decent local rivalry is a positive thing for sports.

CVC's business model is generally to buy undervalued assets, increase their value and then sell. I'd be surprised if their foray in to rugby is anything other than a massive failure.

I've no idea what the alleged 'US consortium' were hoping for. There seemed to be no evidence that they were actually serious.

[inactionman]

Cheers all.

It's such a challenge. You've got 27% of your income skimmed off the top before you do anything. You're then all paying back c10m+ covid loans and have salary costs that are a mad ratio of turnover. Increased central revenue will probably be eaten by the loss of home games. How on earth do you break even in that environment without slashing player costs? Your one shot is some sort of bidding war materialising for the TV rights for 24-25 onwards. That doesn't seem particularly likely.

Having a super rich investor led model only works when there is a queue of serious new investors looking to get involved and the last 12 months has proved that there absolutely aren't.

It really is a poor model - I'm under no illusions that Bath would struggle if Bruce Craig took his toys home with him, and that's just not a healthy situation to be in.

Really sorry mate. Sports teams play such a central role in our lives and it's godawful watching even more key, historic clubs going to the wall simply as they can't balance books. I'd be distraught if it happened to Bath (although almost a relief if it happened to West Ham) so feel for everyone involved. It's just shite.

[SaintK]

Adam Coleman, a decent but by no means remarkable Australian second row, joined the club on a reported £900,000, making him one of the entire league’s highest paid players.

Sums up just how ridiculous the salary levels are!!!

[Margin__Walker]

Adam Coleman, a decent but by no means remarkable Australian second row, joined the club on a reported £900,000, making him one of the entire league’s highest paid players.

Sums up just how ridiculous the salary levels are!!!

For what it's worth, he certainly won't be on that this season and I really doubt he ever was. It was one of those numbers that got thrown out there by Fissler or Rugbypass at the time and has been repeated as fact ever since.

Sure I've said already, but the big fork in the road was 2019 and you probably have to put yourself in that space to understand the start of how it all went wrong. LI had been relegated twice in a row operating on one of the smallest budgets in the league. There was probably a feeling that ring fencing would ultimately arrive and we were in real danger of not surviving a third relegation in a row.

As a result they spent that summer, probably up to the cap (honestly not hugely successfully given the likes of SOB, Mafi, Coleman and Naholo spent most of their time injured), to try to ensure this stint in the prem stuck. They also spent money at the same time on the move back to London, which was a key part of the long term strategy. Clearly it went disastrously wrong, but I can understand the thinking behind it. Now as it turned out, relegation wasn't an issue as Sarries were booted that season and it's been a closed league since. Covid then hit and took a huge toll financially. Not only whilst the league was closed but also with the cancellation of some big home games after the restart.

What I can't understand though, is why steps weren't taken after the restart to drastically cut back. Crossan must have had a decent idea of what his pain threshold was. Whilst our signings after were more more modest, I can't see why he then went on to sign guys like Creevy, Simmons, Fischetti, van der Merwe and Gonzales. We should have been taking any opportunity to offload big earners mid contract too in an attempt to make the money last longer until they got to whatever brave new world the powers that be have. A few like Naholo, Kepu and Rona were, but not enough. Instead it all seemed to be gambled on something coming up in terms of investment.

[Kawazaki]

Adam Coleman, a decent but by no means remarkable Australian second row, joined the club on a reported £900,000, making him one of the entire league’s highest paid players.

Sums up just how ridiculous the salary levels are!!!

And he spends most of time suspended or injured.

Replaces Chris Jack as the most useless waste of money player?

[Margin__Walker]

Cheers all.

It's such a challenge. You've got 27% of your income skimmed off the top before you do anything. You're then all paying back c10m+ covid loans and have salary costs that are a mad ratio of turnover. Increased central revenue will probably be eaten by the loss of home games. How on earth do you break even in that environment without slashing player costs? Your one shot is some sort of bidding war materialising for the TV rights for 24-25 onwards. That doesn't seem particularly likely.

Having a super rich investor led model only works when there is a queue of serious new investors looking to get involved and the last 12 months has proved that there absolutely aren't.

Doesn't look like the ideal start to negotiations

[Biffer]

I know a few people who hated London Irish for the shit about the old London Scottish badge, but even they wouldn't have wished this on them.

Not sure how English rugby goes forward from here.

[Raggs]

Cheers all.

It's such a challenge. You've got 27% of your income skimmed off the top before you do anything. You're then all paying back c10m+ covid loans and have salary costs that are a mad ratio of turnover. Increased central revenue will probably be eaten by the loss of home games. How on earth do you break even in that environment without slashing player costs? Your one shot is some sort of bidding war materialising for the TV rights for 24-25 onwards. That doesn't seem particularly likely.

Having a super rich investor led model only works when there is a queue of serious new investors looking to get involved and the last 12 months has proved that there absolutely aren't.

Doesn't look like the ideal start to negotiations

Wonder if the RFU would be willing to prop them up for two seasons and sell it to a terrestrial TV channel. Boost interest nationwide.

[Paddington Bear]

Cheers all.

It's such a challenge. You've got 27% of your income skimmed off the top before you do anything. You're then all paying back c10m+ covid loans and have salary costs that are a mad ratio of turnover. Increased central revenue will probably be eaten by the loss of home games. How on earth do you break even in that environment without slashing player costs? Your one shot is some sort of bidding war materialising for the TV rights for 24-25 onwards. That doesn't seem particularly likely.

Having a super rich investor led model only works when there is a queue of serious new investors looking to get involved and the last 12 months has proved that there absolutely aren't.

Doesn't look like the ideal start to negotiations

Wonder if the RFU would be willing to prop them up for two seasons and sell it to a terrestrial TV channel. Boost interest nationwide.

Don’t think they’ve got the cash to. Besides, what terrestrial channel is showing three games a weekend?

[fishfoodie]

Doesn't look like the ideal start to negotiations

Wonder if the RFU would be willing to prop them up for two seasons and sell it to a terrestrial TV channel. Boost interest nationwide.

Don’t think they’ve got the cash to. Besides, what terrestrial channel is showing three games a weekend?

I imagine the Clubs would throw a complete shit fit at the suggestion of live games on FTA; they'd be terrified it would hit their gate receipts.

[fishfoodie]

Please forgive me, but;

Exploratory discussions are understood to have taken place between senior officials at the Rugby Football Union and their Irish counterparts in relation to London Irish, Telegraph Sport can reveal.

The informal talks are thought to have been prompted by the IRFU’s publicly stated desire to create more playing opportunities for the bottleneck of talent within the Irish academy.

...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... don-irish/

I don't think anyone had Welsh TV money bailing out the Premiership in the pool

I do hope that Irish gets saved; they're a proper team with a great supporters, & they don't deserve to go down the tubes because of shite luck & Covid

[robmatic]

I know a few people who hated London Irish for the shit about the old London Scottish badge, but even they wouldn't have wished this on them.

Not sure how English rugby goes forward from here.

I've seen some chat about a British and Irish league as the solution. Apart from a 20-team league being a non-starter, I don't see what benefit there would be for the IRFU or SRU. Especially when the URC seems to be going quite well for everyone apart from the Welsh. It's competitive and TV audiences and crowds are going in the right direction.

[Paddington Bear]

Wonder if the RFU would be willing to prop them up for two seasons and sell it to a terrestrial TV channel. Boost interest nationwide.

Don’t think they’ve got the cash to. Besides, what terrestrial channel is showing three games a weekend?

I imagine the Clubs would throw a complete shit fit at the suggestion of live games on FTA; they'd be terrified it would hit their gate receipts.

No there's a few already on ITV and I think they're very supportive.

FTA is critical to any sport that isn't football to some degree, the question is how you balance it with maximising TV revenue, which means selling out. Back in the day, and I mean early 2000s, I know Nigel Wray had a theory that being on TV reduced Sarries' gates and so there'd only be the one contractual game a year televised from Vicarage Road, but the evidence that he was correct on this was always very very shaky.

On an entirely different topic, I was involved in a discussion last night around different sports, the state of rugby etc. The consensus from a wide group of general sports fans who'd happily watch whatever is that English rugby offers the absolute worst value day out in sport. Hard to argue with

[Biffer]

I know a few people who hated London Irish for the shit about the old London Scottish badge, but even they wouldn't have wished this on them.

Not sure how English rugby goes forward from here.

I've seen some chat about a British and Irish league as the solution. Apart from a 20-team league being a non-starter, I don't see what benefit there would be for the IRFU or SRU. Especially when the URC seems to be going quite well for everyone apart from the Welsh. It's competitive and TV audiences and crowds are going in the right direction.

Yeah, a B&I league is a dB solution that only the Welsh want. And their Union is a dumpster fire, so probably not a good place to look for advice.

[Tichtheid]

Please forgive me, but;

Exploratory discussions are understood to have taken place between senior officials at the Rugby Football Union and their Irish counterparts in relation to London Irish, Telegraph Sport can reveal.

The informal talks are thought to have been prompted by the IRFU’s publicly stated desire to create more playing opportunities for the bottleneck of talent within the Irish academy.

...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... don-irish/

I don't think anyone had Welsh TV money bailing out the Premiership in the pool

I do hope that Irish gets saved; they're a proper team with a great supporters, & they don't deserve to go down the tubes because of shite luck & Covid

The talk on that is of the new Ldn Irish being a "Phoenix" club, does that mean not liable for the £30M debt in real English?

You'd be a more than a bit pissed off as a creditor if they walk away from the debt and others would surely think twice about extending credit to premiership rugby clubs as a result.

[Margin__Walker]

Please forgive me, but;

Exploratory discussions are understood to have taken place between senior officials at the Rugby Football Union and their Irish counterparts in relation to London Irish, Telegraph Sport can reveal.

The informal talks are thought to have been prompted by the IRFU’s publicly stated desire to create more playing opportunities for the bottleneck of talent within the Irish academy.

...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... don-irish/

I don't think anyone had Welsh TV money bailing out the Premiership in the pool

I do hope that Irish gets saved; they're a proper team with a great supporters, & they don't deserve to go down the tubes because of shite luck & Covid

The talk on that is of the new Ldn Irish being a "Phoenix" club, does that mean not liable for the £30M debt in real English?

You'd be a more than a bit pissed off as a creditor if they walk away from the debt and others would surely think twice about extending credit to premiership rugby clubs as a result.

The administration will be interesting, and I'm not too sure how it all works. At present we're probably north of £30m as a debt figure given that was based on previous accounts. Vast majority will either be to Crossan or the government. Very roughly speaking you've probably got:

c.£20m in director loans (mostly Crossan, but also a few million to Cusack)
£11m in DCSM covid loan
Whatever is owed to HMRC. We've clearly accrued liabilities there recently given the winding up petition
External Finance he took in Dec 22 (charge secured against P share), probably to cover Q1 operating costs whilst takeover went through in theory.
Whatever misc liabilities that have been accrued this season (player salaries, season tickets sold for next season etc)

There are two assets worth mentioning
Hazelwood (training facility)
Prem P Share

Challenge for any Phoenix club down the line is where you train and play. Guessing somewhere like a Wimbledon ground share for the latter, but Hazelwood will likely be long gone.

[Tichtheid]

Please forgive me, but;



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... don-irish/

I don't think anyone had Welsh TV money bailing out the Premiership in the pool

I do hope that Irish gets saved; they're a proper team with a great supporters, & they don't deserve to go down the tubes because of shite luck & Covid

The talk on that is of the new Ldn Irish being a "Phoenix" club, does that mean not liable for the £30M debt in real English?

You'd be a more than a bit pissed off as a creditor if they walk away from the debt and others would surely think twice about extending credit to premiership rugby clubs as a result.

The administration will be interesting, and I'm not too sure how it all works. At present we're probably north of £30m as a debt figure given that was based on previous accounts. Vast majority will either be to Crossan or the government. Very roughly speaking you've probably got:

c.£20m in director loans (mostly Crossan, but also a few million to Cusack)
£11m in DCSM covid loan
Whatever is owed to HMRC. We've clearly accrued liabilities there recently given the winding up petition
External Finance he took in Dec 22 (charge secured against P share), probably to cover Q1 operating costs whilst takeover went through in theory.
Whatever misc liabilities that have been accrued this season (player salaries, season tickets sold for next season etc)

There are two assets worth mentioning
Hazelwood (training facility)
Prem P Share

Challenge for any Phoenix club down the line is where you train and play. Guessing somewhere like a Wimbledon ground share for the latter, but Hazelwood will likely be long gone.

Something I should have added to my post, it's tragic what has happened and I hope there is a way to relaunch the club.

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I read an article on PR that said Leicester and Exeter are also on shaky ground, two directors had to plough an extra £13M into Tigers and the club gets gates of around 20K, plusTony Rowe had to buy into the hotel that Exeter own and they are often held up as an example of how to run a club from a financial perspective.

[JM2K6]

I know a few people who hated London Irish for the shit about the old London Scottish badge, but even they wouldn't have wished this on them.

Not sure how English rugby goes forward from here.

Much like with the state of the sport in general, it's something that needs major surgery and a rethink from first principles, but vested interests are only interested in tinkering around the edges and whacking another band aid on the cracks.

[Margin__Walker]

I read an article on PR that said Leicester and Exeter are also on shaky ground, two directors had to plough an extra £13M into Tigers and the club gets gates of around 20K, plusTony Rowe had to buy into the hotel that Exeter own and they are often held up as an example of how to run a club from a financial perspective.

Every club in the league is on shakey ground to some extent. Leicester should be okay in the short term with the injection of investor cash and they are such a big name, with a big fan base that I think they'd always cling on. Looking at it with no inside knowledge, perhaps Newcastle, Sale and Exeter look fairly vulnerable. Exeter are clearly cutting costs this season and Newcastle have already done so. Sale have a committed owner, but he's not super rich and they struggle for revenue. If investors walk away though, every team would be in trouble, with perhaps Saints the most secure in terms of sustainability.

[Paddington Bear]

Please forgive me, but;

Exploratory discussions are understood to have taken place between senior officials at the Rugby Football Union and their Irish counterparts in relation to London Irish, Telegraph Sport can reveal.

The informal talks are thought to have been prompted by the IRFU’s publicly stated desire to create more playing opportunities for the bottleneck of talent within the Irish academy.

...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... don-irish/

I don't think anyone had Welsh TV money bailing out the Premiership in the pool

I do hope that Irish gets saved; they're a proper team with a great supporters, & they don't deserve to go down the tubes because of shite luck & Covid

The talk on that is of the new Ldn Irish being a "Phoenix" club, does that mean not liable for the £30M debt in real English?

You'd be a more than a bit pissed off as a creditor if they walk away from the debt and others would surely think twice about extending credit to premiership rugby clubs as a result.

No. During administration the club's assets will be sold to try and satisfy the creditors. A very quick and not thorough search of Companies House suggests that the first creditor to be satisfied will be Powerday:
https://find-and-update.company-informa ... KEt0VGWV2M

I haven't read the whole thing but it looks like they've got a fixed charge over the training ground. Other outstanding charges from the holding company are owed to the English Sport Council (Sport England), christ knows why they're involved as I thought their remit was amateur sport. They may get some of their money back but Powerday and so eventually Crossan will take precedence.
To give a rough summary (let's assume this ends in liquidation), the payments will go:
1) Fixed charge holders (Powerday and Sport England)
2) Outstanding staff wages up to £800 each (if there's enough to satisfy that)
3) Floating charge holders (Powerday and Sport England)
4) Any remainder to unsecured creditors.

So if you're a small business providing catering/the end of season social bill hasn't been paid/if they've contracted out say physio etc there's a very good chance you're completely stuffed as I doubt they can satisfy all of this.

As for the Phoenix club, if it comes about, they'll start afresh with no liabilities or obligations to anyone who lost money.

Incidentally, this Company got registered on June 1st:
https://find-and-update.company-informa ... 2/officers

Edit: Looks like this is the bloke who registered it, an oil man who plays for London Irish Amateurs, played for the 1st XV around the dawn of professionalism and Ireland age group cricket:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/conor-murph ... bdomain=ie

Absolutely love this line in his bio:

Also keen (current) rugby player, coach, golfer, cricket player, footballer, skier, investor, cook and traveler and hence in great shape and ready for next challenge.

[Margin__Walker]

Incidentally, this Company got registered on June 1st:
https://find-and-update.company-informa ... 2/officers

That fella seems to be the sole director in a bunch of fancy sounding oil companies that never actually traded.

[Paddington Bear]

Incidentally, this Company got registered on June 1st:
https://find-and-update.company-informa ... 2/officers

That fella seems to be the sole director in a bunch of fancy sounding oil companies that never actually traded.

Strikes me as the kind of bloke who is somehow always in hospitality at 6N games. All I'm hearing is 'fit and proper'

[Margin__Walker]

Incidentally, this Company got registered on June 1st:
https://find-and-update.company-informa ... 2/officers

That fella seems to be the sole director in a bunch of fancy sounding oil companies that never actually traded.

Strikes me as the kind of bloke who is somehow always in hospitality at 6N games. All I'm hearing is 'fit and proper'

Yep. Director of the Leinster Oil conglomerate. He must be kosher.

Reminds me of that story a decade or more ago about the lad who got much too far into the process of trying to buy Southampton football club, whilst living at home still with his Mum.