The Official English Rugby Thread

[sockwithaticket]

Unbelievable decision.

What is refreshing is seeing the general confusion from English fans and the near universal (that I have seen) condemnation of the decision. This comes just a week after the same reaction from Scottish fans to the short ban for Fagerson. World Rugby obviously don't take player safety seriously but it's nice to see fans are generally on board.

Let's see what Kawazaki has to say

He's away at the moment. He was chairing the disciplinary panel!!!

"More biscuits, Owen? There's a packet of Galaxy disgestives we usually keep hidden away".

[Torquemada 1420]

Unbelievable decision.

What is refreshing is seeing the general confusion from English fans and the near universal (that I have seen) condemnation of the decision. This comes just a week after the same reaction from Scottish fans to the short ban for Fagerson. World Rugby obviously don't take player safety seriously but it's nice to see fans are generally on board.

Let's see what Kawazaki has to say

He's away at the moment. He was chairing the disciplinary panel!!!

[Sandstorm]

Toga is an Aussie? That explains everything.

[Punter15]

Toga is an Aussie? That explains everything.

He wears Owen Farrell underpants, inside out.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Toga is an Aussie? That explains everything.

He wears Owen Farrell underpants, inside out.

With a hole cut in them so the balls fall out?

[Joost]

Word Rugby appealing the Farrell decision, according to a number of journos on Twitter.

Think it says something that I’ve not seen a single England fan disagree with the red (on here, social media or newspaper comments sections, not that I’ve really been looking out mind), only people I’ve seen defend OF are former players.

[Margin__Walker]

In other news Times going with Youngs, Ford, Daly, Manu, Marchant, Watson, Steward backline at the weekend.

[Hal Jordan]

Either Marchant is nailed on at 13 or Borthwick is "getting him used to the position just in case".

[fishfoodie]

In other news Times going with Youngs, Ford, Daly, Manu, Marchant, Watson, Steward backline at the weekend.

Okay, I understand the game is against us, so it's not ideal, but isn't England now running out of game minutes for Mitchell ?

He hasn't played a competitive game in months, & now the way the stars are aligning, Youngs will probably injure himself in the 1st half against Argentina, & he'll be dropped in the excrement with SFA preparation.

[Paddington Bear]

In other news Times going with Youngs, Ford, Daly, Manu, Marchant, Watson, Steward backline at the weekend.

Okay, I understand the game is against us, so it's not ideal, but isn't England now running out of game minutes for Mitchell ?

And we get called the arrogant ones!

[Hal Jordan]

In other news Times going with Youngs, Ford, Daly, Manu, Marchant, Watson, Steward backline at the weekend.

Okay, I understand the game is against us, so it's not ideal, but isn't England now running out of game minutes for Mitchell ?

He hasn't played a competitive game in months, & now the way the stars are aligning, Youngs will probably injure himself in the 1st half against Argentina, & he'll be dropped in the excrement with SFA preparation.

I think in Borthwick's mind Mitchell is third choice, Youngs starts, Care on the bench.

[Lobby]

In other news Times going with Youngs, Ford, Daly, Manu, Marchant, Watson, Steward backline at the weekend.

Okay, I understand the game is against us, so it's not ideal, but isn't England now running out of game minutes for Mitchell ?

He hasn't played a competitive game in months, & now the way the stars are aligning, Youngs will probably injure himself in the 1st half against Argentina, & he'll be dropped in the excrement with SFA preparation.

I think in Borthwick's mind Mitchell is third choice, Youngs starts, Care on the bench.

Apparently, Mitchell's 'lack of game management' (at least as far as Borthwick is concerned) was the reason for his original omission from the WC squad. I assume this means that he failed to kick the ball away when in good attacking positions as often as the coaches wanted.

If he's included in the 22 he'll probably come on with 10 minutes to go or when Ireland get a 30 point lead (whichever is the sooner) to confirm Borthwick's view that he's definitely 3rd choice.

[SaintK]

In other news Times going with Youngs, Ford, Daly, Manu, Marchant, Watson, Steward backline at the weekend.

Okay, I understand the game is against us, so it's not ideal, but isn't England now running out of game minutes for Mitchell ?

He hasn't played a competitive game in months, & now the way the stars are aligning, Youngs will probably injure himself in the 1st half against Argentina, & he'll be dropped in the excrement with SFA preparation.

He might be short of game time but he was only released from the squad 10 days ago.

[sockwithaticket]

In other news Times going with Youngs, Ford, Daly, Manu, Marchant, Watson, Steward backline at the weekend.

Okay, I understand the game is against us, so it's not ideal, but isn't England now running out of game minutes for Mitchell ?

He hasn't played a competitive game in months, & now the way the stars are aligning, Youngs will probably injure himself in the 1st half against Argentina, & he'll be dropped in the excrement with SFA preparation.

The plan is very much for Mitchell not to be required to play any minutes against serious opposition. He's 4th choice, promoted to 3rd by injury in Borthers' mind and the lad's strengths suit England's current game plan even worse than Care.

Equally scenario planning like that is a luxury afforded to settled, successful teams.

[JM2K6]

Very funny that we'll be playing the serious matches with Youngs and Care

[inactionman]

Not sure what else Borthwick can do if the groomed heir apparent gets badly knacked in the warmups.

[JM2K6]

Not sure what else Borthwick can do if the groomed heir apparent gets badly knacked in the warmups.

It was always a bad call to have both Care and Youngs as two of the three original options.

[inactionman]

Not sure what else Borthwick can do if the groomed heir apparent gets badly knacked in the warmups.

It was always a bad call to have both Care and Youngs as two of the three original options.

True, but it's where we are - Borthwick could have picked Mitchell (or any of the other candidate 9s) but he's supposed to be tapering. Developing the next tranche of players is a job for 2024, not on the runway to a World Cup.

It's just yet another Eddie hangover, the sod.

[Brazil]

It's a pity Quirke got injured when he did, as I'm pretty sure he'd have been starting 9 for this world cup. As it is he was out for ages and his form slipped. Youngs is a comfort blanket for the coaches, he can play like absolute dogshit but they can keep convincing themselves he's the answer if any of the alternatives have an off day because he's got so many caps. I'd go so far as to say its restricting the development of our younger 9s because they're not getting put in the situations to improve their flaws.

[duke]

England team announced for Saturday


England squad to face Ireland
15. Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 24 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (unattached, 55 caps)
13. Joe Marchant (Stade Francais, 17 caps)
12. Manu Tuilagi (Sale Sharks, 51 caps)
11. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 58 caps)
10. George Ford – vice-captain (Sale Sharks, 83 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 123 caps)
1. Ellis Genge – vice-captain (Bristol Bears, 50 caps)
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 78 caps)
3. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 27 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 68 caps)
5. David Ribbans (Toulon, 6 caps)
6. Courtney Lawes (captain) (Northampton Saints, 98 caps)
7. Ben Earl (Saracens, 16 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 69 caps)

Replacements:
16. Theo Dan (Saracens, 1 cap)
17. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 80 caps)
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 62 caps)
19. Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 9 caps)
20. Jack Willis (Toulouse, 11 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 88 caps)
22. Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 22 caps)
23. Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)

[inactionman]

England team announced for Saturday


England squad to face Ireland
15. Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 24 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (unattached, 55 caps)
13. Joe Marchant (Stade Francais, 17 caps)
12. Manu Tuilagi (Sale Sharks, 51 caps)
11. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 58 caps)
10. George Ford – vice-captain (Sale Sharks, 83 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 123 caps)
1. Ellis Genge – vice-captain (Bristol Bears, 50 caps)
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 78 caps)
3. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 27 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 68 caps)
5. David Ribbans (Toulon, 6 caps)
6. Courtney Lawes (captain) (Northampton Saints, 98 caps)
7. Ben Earl (Saracens, 16 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 69 caps)

Replacements:
16. Theo Dan (Saracens, 1 cap)
17. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 80 caps)
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 62 caps)
19. Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 9 caps)
20. Jack Willis (Toulouse, 11 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 88 caps)
22. Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 22 caps)
23. Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)

At this point I have no clue what Elliott Daly's prefered position actually is.

5/3 bench split, I'm sure we can say this for most of our squads but if Ben Earl gets injured/pulled there's not great pace in the backrow.

[sockwithaticket]

13 was definitely the longest continuous period of Daly's career, but I think he's primarily been back three for the last few years with.

I would say that for England he's been much more effective as a winger than fullback.


I guess this is a glimpse at our first team (sans Farrell)? Lawrence should be starting ahead of Tuilagi.

Happy for Marchant that he's finally being given a run of games at 13 outside 12s who can actually make some room for him. Now if only we could work on the game plan so he intentionally gets the ball...

[Sandstorm]

George Ford has 83 caps??? So why the fuck are so many England fans bitching that he never gets game time???

[JM2K6]

George Ford has 83 caps??? So why the fuck are so many England fans bitching that he never gets game time???

Because half of those are from the bench and he's always the scapegoat for team problems

[topofthemoon]

George Ford has 83 caps??? So why the fuck are so many England fans bitching that he never gets game time???

Because half of those are from the bench and he's always the scapegoat for team problems

58 starts is a decent return no? Debuted the same year as Russell and that's only 11 fewer than Finn has made.

[JM2K6]

George Ford has 83 caps??? So why the fuck are so many England fans bitching that he never gets game time???

Because half of those are from the bench and he's always the scapegoat for team problems

58 starts is a decent return no? Debuted the same year as Russell and that's only 11 fewer than Finn has made.

He's never had Russell's disciplinary and personality issues, and I suspect Ford has had a much larger percentage of caps off the bench.

[Raggs]

It's also because Ford should have started most if not all of those at 10, rather than trying to save the day from the bench. The other thing is when Ford is removed so Farrell can go to 10.

Be interested in seeing changes in scorelines when Ford comes off the bench, and when Ford starts and then benches for Farrell to 10.

[topofthemoon]

Because half of those are from the bench and he's always the scapegoat for team problems

58 starts is a decent return no? Debuted the same year as Russell and that's only 11 fewer than Finn has made.

He's never had Russell's disciplinary and personality issues, and I suspect Ford has had a much larger percentage of caps off the bench.

More injuries though. And yes to your second point, Russell only has 2 caps as a replacement.

[Deveron Boy]

Because half of those are from the bench and he's always the scapegoat for team problems

58 starts is a decent return no? Debuted the same year as Russell and that's only 11 fewer than Finn has made.

He's never had Russell's disciplinary and personality issues, and I suspect Ford has had a much larger percentage of caps off the bench.

Or talent?

[sockwithaticket]

58 starts is a decent return no? Debuted the same year as Russell and that's only 11 fewer than Finn has made.

He's never had Russell's disciplinary and personality issues, and I suspect Ford has had a much larger percentage of caps off the bench.

Or talent?

Wait, what? Are you saying Ford has never had the talent of Russell? GTFO. Ford's attacking game may have atrophied a little after years of being told to do the opposite of what we saw he was amazing at during his time with Bath, but being good at tactical kicking and organising the team is a string Russell has only relatively recently added to his bow whereas Ford's been great at it for years.

[el capitan]

George Ford has 83 caps??? So why the fuck are so many England fans bitching that he never gets game time???

The main problem I'd say is that things tend to go round in circles - he'll win the shirt, but then give it a year or so and the coaching team decide it's time to dabble with Farrell at 10 once more, Ford has to win it back, and round and round the cycle goes. Added to this he is often the scapegoat when it comes to selection, I think some of it is backlash against the "casual fan" noise which slate him for not being flashy enough in attack nor all action in defence, and despite the 80 caps he's never been given free rein to run the team/backline.

Ford for me, and it seems many others, is the best selection at 10 we can make. He can adapt to different game plans. He can co-exist in a Farrell-centric universe if he's outside him at 12, which some others (*cough* the boy wonder *cough*) clearly couldn't do. He's our best option for playing at the line. He has the best range/feel/variance/timing of pass. And by some distance the best at managing and marshalling the attack over many phases of play. Unfortunately though, he doesn't show the pashun, play with an angry face, and throw himself about when shouldering people in the head.... sorry, I meant tackling, which seems to go against him for a lot of the best rugby brains (and Steve Borthwick).

Right now the frustration is that the team is a mess, selection is hardly clear cut across the field, but this is one position that seems a no-brainer to change. Farrell has had some good, in fact very good, games at 10 in an England shirt, but he's never totally convinced in the role over a period of time and every international coach he's had (including a team with his own fucking father on the coaching staff) have had major doubts and looked elsewhere. Why would that change at the 7874897398437th time of trying?

[JM2K6]

58 starts is a decent return no? Debuted the same year as Russell and that's only 11 fewer than Finn has made.

He's never had Russell's disciplinary and personality issues, and I suspect Ford has had a much larger percentage of caps off the bench.

Or talent?

Ford's one of the best 10s to have played for England. He doesn't lack for talent. There's a reason why he was the U20 world player of the year - just because England have seen fit to ask him to belt the ball in the air a lot (which he made himself indisputable world class at) doesn't mean he doesn't have an incredible all-round skillset.

[Paddington Bear]

Ford is an excellent player and the best fit at 10 for what Borthwick is trying to achieve, however amidst all the gushing it is important to remember that a key reason he’s never nailed down the shirt for a generation is he’s had a habit of going missing in big games

[JM2K6]

Ford is an excellent player and the best fit at 10 for what Borthwick is trying to achieve, however amidst all the gushing it is important to remember that a key reason he’s never nailed down the shirt for a generation is he’s had a habit of going missing in big games

Yeah?

He has a habit of being scapegoated for games that are categorically not on him - e.g. the world cup final - and he's suffered a bit from playing under coaches who are convinced that kicking the fucking ball away repeatedly is a great tactic when you're losing the breakdown battle. But I can't think of too many matches where I could pin the blame on Ford. He doesn't seem to have the same risk of being actually quite shit on the day that a fair few others do.

"Going missing" is a really tough one to define of course so perhaps I've misunderstood - certainly I think someone like Finn Russell would retain the ability to dramatically influence a game no matter how the rest of the team is performing (but not always positively)

[Paddington Bear]

Ford is an excellent player and the best fit at 10 for what Borthwick is trying to achieve, however amidst all the gushing it is important to remember that a key reason he’s never nailed down the shirt for a generation is he’s had a habit of going missing in big games

Yeah?

He has a habit of being scapegoated for games that are categorically not on him - e.g. the world cup final - and he's suffered a bit from playing under coaches who are convinced that kicking the fucking ball away repeatedly is a great tactic when you're losing the breakdown battle. But I can't think of too many matches where I could pin the blame on Ford. He doesn't seem to have the same risk of being actually quite shit on the day that a fair few others do.

"Going missing" is a really tough one to define of course so perhaps I've misunderstood - certainly I think someone like Finn Russell would retain the ability to dramatically influence a game no matter how the rest of the team is performing (but not always positively)

England have three fly halves in the squad. When they lose with two of them at the helm, they’re being scapegoated, it’s the system etc. When they lose with the other at the helm it’s all his fault. Heads I win, tails you lose

Re: going missing - England losses with Ford at 10 have a tendency to be the kind of days where you can’t actually remember England having an attack when we get to full time. It’s happened plenty of times

[dpedin]

Ford is an excellent player and the best fit at 10 for what Borthwick is trying to achieve, however amidst all the gushing it is important to remember that a key reason he’s never nailed down the shirt for a generation is he’s had a habit of going missing in big games

Yeah?

He has a habit of being scapegoated for games that are categorically not on him - e.g. the world cup final - and he's suffered a bit from playing under coaches who are convinced that kicking the fucking ball away repeatedly is a great tactic when you're losing the breakdown battle. But I can't think of too many matches where I could pin the blame on Ford. He doesn't seem to have the same risk of being actually quite shit on the day that a fair few others do.

"Going missing" is a really tough one to define of course so perhaps I've misunderstood - certainly I think someone like Finn Russell would retain the ability to dramatically influence a game no matter how the rest of the team is performing (but not always positively)

England have three fly halves in the squad. When they lose with two of them at the helm, they’re being scapegoated, it’s the system etc. When they lose with the other at the helm it’s all his fault. Heads I win, tails you lose

Re: going missing - England losses with Ford at 10 have a tendency to be the kind of days where you can’t actually remember England having an attack when we get to full time. It’s happened plenty of times

England could play some rugby with that team but there are some issues. Will Youngs service speed up from glacial to merely slow? Will Ford be allowed to play rugby or will instructions be to keep with kicking the ball away? Will Tuliagi just run into the nearest defender or will he actually pass a ball wide? Unfortunately I can see England 'keeping it tight', stick with one out rugby and kicking the shit out of the ball - if they do this Ireland will eat them alive.

I think Ireland will look to attack England around the breakdown as George, Genge, Stuart and Vunipola are not the fastest in resetting defence at the breakdown particularly after numerous phases and they will also attack the Tuliagi-Marchant midfield as neither are that good at defending and Tuliagu in particular can be caught on his heels and out of position in defence. Ireland will just go through multiple phases and look to create gaps in English defence, England will go through no more that 2 or 3 phases then kick it away. Looking forward to it.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Ford is an excellent player and the best fit at 10 for what Borthwick is trying to achieve, however amidst all the gushing it is important to remember that a key reason he’s never nailed down the shirt for a generation is he’s had a habit of going missing in big games

Yeah?

He has a habit of being scapegoated for games that are categorically not on him - e.g. the world cup final - and he's suffered a bit from playing under coaches who are convinced that kicking the fucking ball away repeatedly is a great tactic when you're losing the breakdown battle. But I can't think of too many matches where I could pin the blame on Ford. He doesn't seem to have the same risk of being actually quite shit on the day that a fair few others do.

"Going missing" is a really tough one to define of course so perhaps I've misunderstood - certainly I think someone like Finn Russell would retain the ability to dramatically influence a game no matter how the rest of the team is performing (but not always positively)

England have three fly halves in the squad. When they lose with two of them at the helm, they’re being scapegoated, it’s the system etc. When they lose with the other at the helm it’s all his fault. Heads I win, tails you lose

Re: going missing - England losses with Ford at 10 have a tendency to be the kind of days where you can’t actually remember England having an attack when we get to full time. It’s happened plenty of times

Smith has only just started out so even if he's struggled gets a pass for now, Ford hasn't been a big reason for playing badly and/or losing, at times Farrell IS responsible for some poor performances and some losses

Thus Farrell gets more criticism for all there are some fanboys.

[Hal Jordan]

Marchant isn't good at defending? When did that happen?

[Paddington Bear]

Yeah?

He has a habit of being scapegoated for games that are categorically not on him - e.g. the world cup final - and he's suffered a bit from playing under coaches who are convinced that kicking the fucking ball away repeatedly is a great tactic when you're losing the breakdown battle. But I can't think of too many matches where I could pin the blame on Ford. He doesn't seem to have the same risk of being actually quite shit on the day that a fair few others do.

"Going missing" is a really tough one to define of course so perhaps I've misunderstood - certainly I think someone like Finn Russell would retain the ability to dramatically influence a game no matter how the rest of the team is performing (but not always positively)

England have three fly halves in the squad. When they lose with two of them at the helm, they’re being scapegoated, it’s the system etc. When they lose with the other at the helm it’s all his fault. Heads I win, tails you lose

Re: going missing - England losses with Ford at 10 have a tendency to be the kind of days where you can’t actually remember England having an attack when we get to full time. It’s happened plenty of times

Smith has only just started out so even if he's struggled gets a pass for now, Ford hasn't been a big reason for playing badly and/or losing, at times Farrell IS responsible for some poor performances and some losses

Thus Farrell gets more criticism for all there are some fanboys.

Smith’s had 22 caps! Appreciate the highlight reel could fit into a tik tok thus far though

[JM2K6]

Ford is an excellent player and the best fit at 10 for what Borthwick is trying to achieve, however amidst all the gushing it is important to remember that a key reason he’s never nailed down the shirt for a generation is he’s had a habit of going missing in big games

Yeah?

He has a habit of being scapegoated for games that are categorically not on him - e.g. the world cup final - and he's suffered a bit from playing under coaches who are convinced that kicking the fucking ball away repeatedly is a great tactic when you're losing the breakdown battle. But I can't think of too many matches where I could pin the blame on Ford. He doesn't seem to have the same risk of being actually quite shit on the day that a fair few others do.

"Going missing" is a really tough one to define of course so perhaps I've misunderstood - certainly I think someone like Finn Russell would retain the ability to dramatically influence a game no matter how the rest of the team is performing (but not always positively)

England have three fly halves in the squad. When they lose with two of them at the helm, they’re being scapegoated, it’s the system etc. When they lose with the other at the helm it’s all his fault. Heads I win, tails you lose

I was hoping for specifics, because that's kind of my point here. We can all point to games where some players like Ben Youngs have been absolutely appalling - when passes have been dreadful, kicks have been dreadful, he's dithered and cost us hugely. But Ford isn't someone who really produces error-strewn performances with bad decision making and bad execution. So it's instructive to know which games he's at fault for, because then you get into the thornier question of whether it's on him at all or whether it's the game plan at fault.

I realise you're tying this into the Farrell arguments, but I think it's important to note that a lot of the criticism of Farrell comes from his direct fuckups, be they poor execution or poor decision making. Ford isn't someone who would regularly take the wrong option, but Farrell has done on many occasions. Both of them aren't to blame for a tactic that involves booting the ball away as the primary method of dealing with the ball, but I've never seen Ford make the same mistakes Farrell makes in terms of when to kick and how well executed it is. Ford's a better passer in general, and he's certainly the more agile runner.

There's no question that Farrell gets unwarranted criticism that should be aimed at his 9, his forwards, or more appropriately, the moron who thinks that England must be told to kick the ball back to the opposition as often as possible. That actually makes it harder to criticise him for the things he does in an England shirt that are hair-pullingly frustrating, be it when he turns down a huge overlap to boot the ball away or fails to execute his skills or does something that make him look incredibly sub-par (which, obviously, he isn't!). Ford makes mistakes like any other player but I genuinely don't remember matches where the frustration at him was more than just frustration at the game plan. Which is why I was wanting specific examples. I mentioned the world cup final because he was Eddie's scapegoat and I can't think of many people who genuinely believe Ford was the problem there, given the high profile disasters from several key players.

Re: going missing - England losses with Ford at 10 have a tendency to be the kind of days where you can’t actually remember England having an attack when we get to full time. It’s happened plenty of times

Yes. Is that his fault or because he's the best in the world at a particular kicking game, so coaches base everything around that? I can think of plenty of examples of exactly what you're talking about - particularly the away matches. You may remember me talking about Eddie's plans for playing big teams away from home, how negative an approach we had where we essentially kicked away everything and soaked up pressure, but our defence wasn't good enough to soak up the pressure and we had no plan B for when we were conceding points and needed to play catchup rugby. I can't remember many examples of Ford's execution, decision making, or personal skills being the reason why England didn't do anything. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, of course.

It's a bit like the opening game of these warmups. Anyone who thinks Care and Smith "disappeared" would be kidding themselves. There's rarely been a clearer example of players playing to a very rigid game plan completely at odds with their skillset and natural approach to the game, doing a pretty good job of it, but the team obviously not being full of attacking brio as a result. But people who dislike them both were screaming about their performances in that game.

Smith does indeed have a decent number of caps already. And about the same number of different midfield and 8/9 combinations to go with it but it's entirely fair to question whether his game will ever translate to the international arena in any recognisable way, especially with a very conservative coaching setup. I don't think the Ford discussion is anything like that, and it makes a much easier comparison with Farrell.