The Official English Rugby Thread

[geordie_6]

Could have given Lawes a final runout, and I don't think we need to see Manu do very little again when Lawrence is benched.

[sockwithaticket]

That team is a weird mishmash of giving players a run out or send off and resting the most heavily worked over the tournament.

It may be enough to do so, but it doesn't look like an optimal team selected to take 3rd place.

[Slick]

That team is a weird mishmash of giving players a run out or send off and resting the most heavily worked over the tournament.

It may be enough to do so, but it doesn't look like an optimal team selected to take 3rd place.

Stupid fixture anyway really

[sockwithaticket]

Gold, silver and bronze is a pretty established thing across sports. This match helps sort out the latter.

From a slightly sentimental point of view, of all the players who play and have played international rugby it's a relative few who ever get this far in world cups. Even if it's only 3rd place, that's something of an achievment and a physical memento like the winner medals to look back on once retired would be nice to have.

[Sandstorm]

Why play Marchant if he’s off to France?

Agree re Youngs. I’ve given him plenty of stick but this should be a nice send off for him. He’s never lacked for effort

With Farrell and Youngs, the centres and wings are not gonna see much ball anyway.

Ben passes to his wingers:

https://www.google.com/search?q=ben+you ... 1QFFE,st:0

[JM2K6]

Squad for 3/4 play off
Steward on the wing
No game time at all for Malins and Walker
15 Marcus Smith, 14 Freddie Steward, 13 Joe Marchant, 12 Manu Tuilagi, 11 Henry Arundell, 10 Owen Farrell (c), 9 Ben Youngs, 8 Ben Earl, 7 Sam Underhill, 6 Tom Curry, 5 Ollie Chessum, 4 Maro Itoje, 3 Will Stuart, 2 Theo Dan, 1 Ellis Genge
Replacements: 16 Jamie George, 17 Bevan Rodd, 18 Dan Cole, 19 David Ribbans, 20 Lewis Ludlam, 21 Danny Care, 22 George Ford, 23 Ollie Lawrence

George Ford pretty much wins us the single hardest game we faced up until this point (excluding SA), despite being a man down, and gets rewarded with being benched for all the knockout games, doesn't get on for Fiji, and gets 2 minutes against South Africa. I don't think Farrell has been bad by any means (though he could have kept his head a bit more against SA), but Ford deserved much better.

You're a very lucky man to have missed the Samoa game

[Paddington Bear]

That team is a weird mishmash of giving players a run out or send off and resting the most heavily worked over the tournament.

It may be enough to do so, but it doesn't look like an optimal team selected to take 3rd place.

Stupid fixture anyway really

Jim Hamilton I think is right when he says 3rd place games shouldn’t happen in contact sport. Bring the boys home, Sarries need to stop shipping 50

[JM2K6]

IMO make them play qualifiers for the next, ooh, 4 months

[Slick]

That team is a weird mishmash of giving players a run out or send off and resting the most heavily worked over the tournament.

It may be enough to do so, but it doesn't look like an optimal team selected to take 3rd place.

Stupid fixture anyway really

Jim Hamilton I think is right when he says 3rd place games shouldn’t happen in contact sport. Bring the boys home, Sarries need to stop shipping 50

Totally agree, completely pointless, particularly if one team takes it seriously like the Argies will

[Margin__Walker]

Assume England will take it fairly seriously. If only because there are double ranking points resting on it iirc

[petej]

Assume England will take it fairly seriously. If only because there are double ranking points resting on it iirc

Not that seriously if we are giving out free caps to players retiring. Disappointed as would like to see a more exciting backline like Mitchell, smith/Ford, Malins, Lawrence, marchant, arundell, Steward/Smith.

If Borthwick does not overhaul the squad a fair amount in the 6N I will be very disappointed.

[ASMO]

Assume England will take it fairly seriously. If only because there are double ranking points resting on it iirc

Not that seriously if we are giving out free caps to players retiring. Disappointed as would like to see a more exciting backline like Mitchell, smith/Ford, Malins, Lawrence, marchant, arundell, Steward/Smith.

If Borthwick does not overhaul the squad a fair amount in the 6N I will be very disappointed.

I would say you better prepare yourself.

[Raggs]

Retirees are useful to Borthwick since they're free swaps in the EPS I believe, so he should be able to make 5?+2 swaps. Just Youngs and Lawes right?

[geordie_6]

Retirees are useful to Borthwick since they're free swaps in the EPS I believe, so he should be able to make 5?+2 swaps. Just Youngs and Lawes right?

Not officially confirmed, but Marler looks to be on his way. Have to assume Dan Cole will as well.

[SaintK]

Retirees are useful to Borthwick since they're free swaps in the EPS I believe, so he should be able to make 5?+2 swaps. Just Youngs and Lawes right?

Not officially confirmed, but Marler looks to be on his way. Have to assume Dan Cole will as well.

It shows our paucity in depth at prop. Neither of them should have been in squad really.

[sockwithaticket]

Retirees are useful to Borthwick since they're free swaps in the EPS I believe, so he should be able to make 5?+2 swaps. Just Youngs and Lawes right?

Not officially confirmed, but Marler looks to be on his way. Have to assume Dan Cole will as well.

It shows our paucity in depth at prop. Neither of them should have been in squad really.

Loosehead is potentially not so bad, it's just none of the natural successors/additional depth players in the 26 - 30 age bracket have had a chance one way or another. The likes of Rapava-Ruskin, West and Obano have all had their issues with injury, but they've also not been selected when fit. Instead we gave more caps to an increasingly out of form M. Vunipola. The next generation of Iyogun, Baxter and Rodd look decent.

[sockwithaticket]

Wasps talking to the URC apparently

https://archive.ph/dFhX8

The most interesting tidbit from that for me was that the URC CEO lives in Kent and has been helping the club try to find a home there.

[Brazil]

Wasps talking to the URC apparently

https://archive.ph/dFhX8

The most interesting tidbit from that for me was that the URC CEO lives in Kent and has been helping the club try to find a home there.

Well that all sounds completely above board and unfraught by massive fuck-off pitfalls.

[SaintK]

Wasps talking to the URC apparently

https://archive.ph/dFhX8

The most interesting tidbit from that for me was that the URC CEO lives in Kent and has been helping the club try to find a home there.

Well that all sounds completely above board and unfraught by massive fuck-off pitfalls.

All sounds pie in the sky!

[Sinkers]

Just seen a headline that Radwan is making his 100th appearance for Newcastle this weekend.

SB seems to have proved that he can create an obstinate bastard pack. Am I being really really really naive to hope that given time he can meld it with a potent back line?

[sockwithaticket]

Just seen a headline that Radwan is making his 100th appearance for Newcastle this weekend.

SB seems to have proved that he can create an obstinate bastard pack. Am I being really really really naive to hope that given time he can meld it with a potent back line?

Yes.

[Sinkers]

Thought so

I’ll stick with checking the write up on the morning after and deciding I can’t be arsed to watch then - SOP for the last few years.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

What in this does 'obstinate bastard pack' mean?

They've shown they can sometimes defend a maul well, sometimes even set something of a maul themselves, but both are hit and miss. The setpiece is mostly okay across scrums, lineouts and restarts, but all have shown problems at times. They can be reasonably physical but are part of a team that can get horribly narrow in defence very quickly. We do vary how much we contest the ball at the breakdown, but they do have that in their game, so there's that. And if we vaguely try to attack other than off 1st phase lineout we seem to very quickly run out of any idea of how to carry, how to present ball, how to clear ball and support attack, basically we have no attack other than kicking the ball away and hoping the other drops the ball or gives us a penalty. And we do seem to have removed some of the far too numerous dumb penalties we had under Eddie, that too is good, even if there's further room for improvement.

Which may all mean the pack is still better than the backs, but it's surely a long way from being sorted.

Twice we've set the record in this World Cup for sloth when it comes to playing the ball, which is just absurd in what it says about a lack of intent to score points across selection and tactics. We beat a bunch of bad sides, Argentina especially take a bow for losing with a man advantage, and then SA seemed to panic when presented with an easy route to the final and having nothing to counter off when England refused to attack.

Watching England is the triumph of hope over experience. And can in no way be presenting a case for growing the sport.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

What Borthwick could usefully do is have a good idea what it is he wants to achieve and what he needs from the players to do it.

For instance over recent times England have put across the group a lot of resource (including caps) into the following Mercer, Arundell, Ted Hill, Jonny Hill, Radwan, Ribbans, Freeman, Porter, Rodd, Quirke, Randall, Dombrandt, OHC, JVP, Slade, Isiekwe, Ford, Underhill, Cokanasiga, Ludlam, Marchant, Stuart, Willis, Smith, Blamire... and there's a very good chance not one of them starts in the XV come the 6N.

If one actually breaks it down there both aren't many games until the next WC, and a lot of people would rather like to do much better in the 6N. So not pissing opportunities up the wall and having a good idea from the start would be massively helpful.

[Hal Jordan]

Mercer - Face doesn't sem to fit

Arundell - Ditto

Ted Hill - Has the tools, but seems to be an old school flanker, so again not a lanky 6.

Jonny Hill - Loads of chances, dumb penalties and curiously soft for his size.

Radwan - No idea

Ribbans - Good bench fodder, but i think off to France

Freeman - Mid

Porter - Shit

Rodd - Probably bench or starter

Quirke & Randall - Not box kickers

Dombrandt - Had his chances, probably not a Borthwick scheme fit

OHC - I think he's a club level killer, nothing more

JVP - Would have started the RWC if not for injury

Slade - Victim of circumstance. Not Farrell so he ain't playing 12, not Tuilagi so he's not playing 13

Isiekwe - Good player, but not done anything at Test level. I am well disposed to him since he went to my daughter's school. Also had a major illness.

Ford - Legitimate cause for complaint. Bailed out Borthwick and the best fly half of the last decade, shat on.

Underhill - Great player, will he stay fit?

Cokanasiga - One for the size queens, nothing else.

Ludlam - Should be in the mix for foreseeable future.

Marchant - Sadly, having developed into probably our best outside back, is now off to France.

Stuart - 100% second banana.

Willis - Like Underhill, can he stay fit?

Smith - Oooh, let's make our most attacking fly half a full back! FML.

Blamire - Daft scoring record, was he there due to injuries alone? Worth another look.

That's my uninformed and slightly drunken opinion.

[JM2K6]

The circumstance Slade is a victim of is his repeated horror shows of dreadful tackling, horrendous decisions in defence, and repeated mistakes with ball in hand

[sockwithaticket]

Blamire was mostly an Eddie 'aren't I so smart' left field pick. He was decent enough, but try rate aside, I don't think we're missing a great deal from his current exclusion. Jack Singleton was looking pretty decent before the long term injury he sustained last season and if he can get back to that he'll be the best bet for hooker behind George and LCD (I assume they'll play on internationally for the next couple of seasons at least).

Slade did more than enough to justify his exclusion, but being partnered with Farrell so often certainly didn't provide him with the best chance to shine.

Very, very harsh on Freeman who's had all of two caps at the very death of the Eddie regime. He looks the business for Saints even when they're having one of their shit days.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Any which way that's dozens upon dozens of caps to be giving away, and for precious little return. And that list is far from exhaustive, and it's likely to be extended though the 6N.

Sure we have a lot of sides to draw upon Vs pretty much every tier 1 side bar France, but whatever Borthwick wants to do, from playing rugby through to aping South Africa this is something he can nail from EPS selection on through his XVs, or not. And for him it's the one thing that will most inform how results go.

Really how many games are there to be nailing down 25-28 of a RWC squad, maybe 40, tops. And again I'm led to believe some people would quite like to win the 6N more than once every 6 years

[ASMO]

All the time Farrell, Tuilagi and Borthwick are in the box seats England will amount to very little. They are 1 dimensional and regardless of the attacking talent available will kill any creativity stone dead. Arundell looked broken when he came off on Friday it wouldnt suprise me if he stuck 2 fingers up at England selection under the current regime.

[Oxbow]

Arundell is off to France isn't he, so won't be getting picked anyway.

[Margin__Walker]

Arundell is off to France isn't he, so won't be getting picked anyway.

He's eligible for the 6N. After that depends on whether he's signed for a prem team next season or not.

Honestly though, if Borthwick's going to play a game where every play is the kick setup, he could probably find a better kick contesting wing in the prem.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

It does rather feel like the RFU have hung out to dry to those players forced to leave Worcester, Wasps and Irish who have England ambitions but would also quite like to earn close to a market wage. How are they supposed to easily find a club in England that has money to take on another player and maybe even have room in the cap? And to then have that seem RFU stepping in to pay Watson's salary to help out Leicester, well at best it doesn't look good, and it for sure doesn't help the national side.

Surely there was some scope to allow some wriggle room even if they wanted to keep the wider policy that's working so badly of play in England to play for England

[Paddington Bear]

Is the policy working badly? Beyond the finances there’s a hell of a lot good about the Prem and allowing our best players to go to France will kill that

[sockwithaticket]

For all that we the fans might really rate the likes of Marchant, Willis and Arundell they're still fringe players for England. Marchant less so, but that's only happened for him pretty recently and since he signed to move away.

We don't really have any of our established internationals looking to ply their trade overseas at present, which would suggest that the policy is working. Any of the unforced exiles who had designs on international rugby have contrived to stay in the Premiership or to make a return in the immediate future. For youngsters like Arundell and Loader, there are worse things for players of their ages to do than go experience other leagues. What are they really missing, other than tackle bag holding for England? I think more of them should try it for a couple of seasons while they're young and then come back to England.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Is the policy working badly? Beyond the finances there’s a hell of a lot good about the Prem and allowing our best players to go to France will kill that

It's not working for England. Or at least England are appalling to watch and have an appalling win ratio.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

For all that we the fans might really rate the likes of Marchant, Willis and Arundell they're still fringe players for England. Marchant less so, but that's only happened for him pretty recently and since he signed to move away.

We don't really have any of our established internationals looking to ply their trade overseas at present, which would suggest that the policy is working. Any of the unforced exiles who had designs on international rugby have contrived to stay in the Premiership or to make a return in the immediate future. For youngsters like Arundell and Loader, there are worse things for players of their ages to do than go experience other leagues. What are they really missing, other than tackle bag holding for England? I think more of them should try it for a couple of seasons while they're young and then come back to England.

Who is the policy working for? Yes we have our internationals playing in our league, but what is the actual return for that?

[JM2K6]

The fans, who want to see the best players playing for their clubs, and the clubs, who benefit from the fans paying for that, and England, who get a lot more access to these players than they would if these players were overseas.

Just because England and English rugby are in the shit at the moment doesn't mean that it couldn't be far worse for everyone.

[sockwithaticket]

For all that we the fans might really rate the likes of Marchant, Willis and Arundell they're still fringe players for England. Marchant less so, but that's only happened for him pretty recently and since he signed to move away.

We don't really have any of our established internationals looking to ply their trade overseas at present, which would suggest that the policy is working. Any of the unforced exiles who had designs on international rugby have contrived to stay in the Premiership or to make a return in the immediate future. For youngsters like Arundell and Loader, there are worse things for players of their ages to do than go experience other leagues. What are they really missing, other than tackle bag holding for England? I think more of them should try it for a couple of seasons while they're young and then come back to England.

Who is the policy working for? Yes we have our internationals playing in our league, but what is the actual return for that?

What's the policy designed to do? Increase the national team's access to players for training camps, exerting more control over the workload of players and ensuring that the players continue to ply their trade in England. The rationale for the latter is often put forward as helping to ensure a higher standard of domestic rugby, keeping the interest of fans in the domestic league as well as providing obvious onboarding points for newer fans attracted by international rugby - someone develops a favourite England player and checks out which club they play for.

That Eddie and Borthwick haven't been able to use the policy to deliver a more cohesive and successful England team over the last few years is down to them rather than it imo.

[Paddington Bear]

Is the policy working badly? Beyond the finances there’s a hell of a lot good about the Prem and allowing our best players to go to France will kill that

It's not working for England. Or at least England are appalling to watch and have an appalling win ratio.

I don’t see any correlation between the two things, sorry.

[Oxbow]

Conditions making for a shocking game at Kingston Park.