The Official English Rugby Thread

[sockwithaticket]

I think I get what he's saying, as good as Lawes has been in the latter stages of his career, he's still relatively slow and we haven't often picked a back row to accommodate that. That said, singling Lawes out is unfair, the whole England team has been crap at supporting attacking breakdowns and linebreaks for a long time. We seemingly don't place much value on it, which is wild.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

it makes more sense if you want to 'play' as we recently did against SA, which is to say don't have any attack and then you have no phases to support

and no, it's not all on Lawes, and if one didn't pick Lawes that does weaken the lineout. still, I largely pick a side (want to see a side) based on how it can attack, and I can get everything I like about Lawes from lock and get better support play picking someone else on the flank

[Tichtheid]

Luc Smith, younger brother of Marcus, scores a belter

[Margin__Walker]

Looks like Arundell's taken himself out of the equation as far as England goes.

Pretty impressive move from him if this turns out to be true. Doesn't sound like a money issue going off the Times article in the week. Seems to be genuinely enjoying playing rugby over there. Good luck to him as I think it will be genuinely good for him as a player. England will be fine without him. There are always decent outside backs around if Borthwick fancies using them in a more conventional way.

[sockwithaticket]

I would imagine England going back on having stated he would be eligible for the '24 6N probably didn't do a lot to foster goodwill in the negotiations.

[Margin__Walker]

I would imagine England going back on having stated he would be eligible for the '24 6N probably didn't do a lot to foster goodwill in the negotiations.

For sure. If it would me, moving the goalposts like that would make me far more likely to walk away and deal with people instead like Lancaster who I'd trust more to be straight with me.

[Ovals]

I would imagine England going back on having stated he would be eligible for the '24 6N probably didn't do a lot to foster goodwill in the negotiations.

For sure. If it would me, moving the goalposts like that would make me far more likely to walk away and deal with people instead like Lancaster who I'd trust more to be straight with me.

He might also feel that the role of winger (chase that fucking kick) for England, isn't what he's looking for !!

[petej]

Surprised no English club went for Ben Loader.

[Raggs]

Surprised no English club went for Ben Loader.

Over who? Too many players in the market and 3 less clubs.

[Margin__Walker]

Surprised no English club went for Ben Loader.

Over who? Too many players in the market and 3 less clubs.

Over plenty of squad players in the league. Think he got offers, but took the opportunity to try something a bit different for a few years.

[Marylandolorian]

Premiership clubs to face squad limits under new regulations to cut costs

Is this going to happen? Kind of like the idea.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... egulation/

[weegie01]

Premiership clubs to face squad limits under new regulations to cut costs

Is this going to happen? Kind of like the idea.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... egulation/

I can't read the article due to the paywall, but that sounds like a terrible idea. Fewer players means they will play more games wuth more wear and tear. Why not just limit the budget and let teams deal with that how they wish.

Or is this rich clubs wanting everyone to have fewer players but they can still spend a lot on each player and thus have more expensive squads?

[Margin__Walker]

Not read it either, but understand elsewhere that it's actually 35 'Senior' players. 12 Academy transition (20-24) and 15 players under 20.

Doubt a lot of squads will even be impacted and those that are will just result in fewer journeyman and a lowering of the age profile, which on the face of it doesn't seem like a bad thing.

Happy to be corrected though if that's not what's in there

[Marylandolorian]

The article

Spoiler

Show

Maximum squad sizes will be imposed upon Premiership clubs as part of the new Professional Game Partnership with the Rugby Football Union, Telegraph Sport can reveal.

While discussions are continuing, the leading proposal will limit clubs to a maximum senior squad of 35 players with a further 12 players in a ‘transition’ group from their academy.

Capping the number of senior and academy players a club can carry was understood to be a key recommendation of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport advisers, Ralph Rimmer and Chris Pilling, who were appointed last summer by the government to create a more sustainable league after the loss of three Premiership clubs to administration last season.

The reduction from 13 to 10 teams means that there is no longer an overlap with the regular international windows so there is less need for teams to carry bloated squads to compensate for club v country clashes. The purpose of imposing an upper limit is designed to not only control costs but to encourage teams to put more faith in their academy players rather than relying on journeymen to fill holes. Young English players’ lack of game time has been cited as a key concern by Bill Sweeney, the RFU chief executive, heading into the PGP negotiations with the Premiership which are unlikely to conclude this year.

While some clubs who have traditionally carried small squads such as Sale Sharks and Northampton Saints would be unaffected by such a change, teams such as Bath, who have a total of 73 senior and academy players, and Harlequins, who have 47 senior players, would need to make significant cuts in the coming seasons.

“You need to hit that sweet spot,” a source close to the negotiations said. “You don’t want your squad to be too small where players are playing too much but you don’t want your squad to be too big where players never play. There are squads of 70 and there will be 10-15 players in that who play less than five games a season. That just does not help anyone.”

The transition group would have its own salary cap while clubs would carry a further “rookie” class for Under-20 and Under-19 up to a maximum of 15 players.

The controversial development of Premiership 2 in the place of the Championship and streamlining numbers within academies together with the introduction of a draft system are also means to ensure younger players receive more game time. There is a recognition that certain clubs benefit disproportionately from the current academy catchment system which leads to them hoarding talented young players with only the narrowest path to regular first-team rugby which is the single most critical ingredient to their development.

“Clubs need to identify the prospects who are really likely to break through,” the source added. “Also if you restrict those numbers then it allows other clubs to pick up some of those other talents who would otherwise be stockpiled. We would not want a load of young fly-halves to be queued up behind Marcus Smith at Harlequins because he will be there for the foreseeable future and they simply will not be playing.”

[ASMO]

I see Puffing Billy had had his red card rescinded, Sarries played better when he was off to be fair.

[Ymx]

Gosh, Walrus is such a prat. What a nasty thing to say about a young player.

[ASMO]

No serious rugby person takes anything that idiot says seriously.

[sockwithaticket]

In a sense I kind of admire that he's managed to secure a pretty well paying writing job for this long while consistently shitting out utter drivel.

[Simian]

In a sense I kind of admire that he's managed to secure a pretty well paying writing job for this long while consistently shitting out utter drivel.

In one way, it’s totally baffling. I can only assume he’s hit a sort of sweet spot between saying the the type of thing that casual fans / general sports sounds sensible, but that more interested fans read because it’s so daft?

Or maybe he’s just got himself locked into a long term contract and doesn’t give af? I find it hard to believe he actually thinks a lot of the things he says!

[SaintK]

Gosh, Walrus is such a prat. What a nasty thing to say about a young player.

If he was at The Stoop he would have seen Smith have a poor game against Toulouse

[ASMO]

Gosh, Walrus is such a prat. What a nasty thing to say about a young player.

If he was at The Stoop he would have seen Smith have a poor game against Toulouse

i don't think he had a poor game, its just that Quins were comprehensivly beaten right across the park by a much better team.

[Raggs]

Only watched it as I could on my phone, but Smith seemed fine. The last couple of games I've watched him in, he's been bringing players into the game better than I've seen before, still got the individual danger, but pairing up well with his team mates. Didn't get to watch consistently enough to make any judgement on whether he was generally picking the right option, but it seemed to go well. Picking the right option correctly is something Ford seems to be able to nail repeatedly well, it's not flashy, but constantly getting over the gainline, even if only by a few yards, makes a big difference.

Fin Smith in the last game or two I've seen, seems to be very good at this too, and he's got a bit of the Cips about him on how well he can hide who the pass is going to. With that, even if you pick the "wrong" option, it tends to work out due to just being done well.

Have to say, with Ford as the old head, then Smith and Smith, I think our 10 stocks look pretty damn good for the future.

We still need a 12 though! We've got a lot of options for back 3 (be nice to solidify on some), then a ton of choices for 13 (even more with Freeman putting his hand up very well), but still very limited on genuine 12s.

Is there someone I've just not been watching looking handy? It's been a while since I've tried to watch more than 2-3 games a weekend.

[ASMO]

Only watched it as I could on my phone, but Smith seemed fine. The last couple of games I've watched him in, he's been bringing players into the game better than I've seen before, still got the individual danger, but pairing up well with his team mates. Didn't get to watch consistently enough to make any judgement on whether he was generally picking the right option, but it seemed to go well. Picking the right option correctly is something Ford seems to be able to nail repeatedly well, it's not flashy, but constantly getting over the gainline, even if only by a few yards, makes a big difference.

Fin Smith in the last game or two I've seen, seems to be very good at this too, and he's got a bit of the Cips about him on how well he can hide who the pass is going to. With that, even if you pick the "wrong" option, it tends to work out due to just being done well.

Have to say, with Ford as the old head, then Smith and Smith, I think our 10 stocks look pretty damn good for the future.

We still need a 12 though! We've got a lot of options for back 3 (be nice to solidify on some), then a ton of choices for 13 (even more with Freeman putting his hand up very well), but still very limited on genuine 12s.

Is there someone I've just not been watching looking handy? It's been a while since I've tried to watch more than 2-3 games a weekend.

Lawrence and Freeman i can definately see as being our center pairing going forwards.

[SaintK]

Only watched it as I could on my phone, but Smith seemed fine. The last couple of games I've watched him in, he's been bringing players into the game better than I've seen before, still got the individual danger, but pairing up well with his team mates. Didn't get to watch consistently enough to make any judgement on whether he was generally picking the right option, but it seemed to go well. Picking the right option correctly is something Ford seems to be able to nail repeatedly well, it's not flashy, but constantly getting over the gainline, even if only by a few yards, makes a big difference.

Fin Smith in the last game or two I've seen, seems to be very good at this too, and he's got a bit of the Cips about him on how well he can hide who the pass is going to. With that, even if you pick the "wrong" option, it tends to work out due to just being done well.

Have to say, with Ford as the old head, then Smith and Smith, I think our 10 stocks look pretty damn good for the future.

We still need a 12 though! We've got a lot of options for back 3 (be nice to solidify on some), then a ton of choices for 13 (even more with Freeman putting his hand up very well), but still very limited on genuine 12s.

Is there someone I've just not been watching looking handy? It's been a while since I've tried to watch more than 2-3 games a weekend.

Smiths kicking out of hand was poor as was his crabbing across the field and running up blind alleys
I'm generally a fan of his but I guess when you're behind a pack that's getting well beaten then you're going to struggle

[sockwithaticket]

We have 12 options they're mostly just very young/unproven and will require a coach to take a punt on them.

Litchfield and Hartley were impressive at the weekend. I've liked the look of Seb Atkinson in general. Dingwall is well overdue a cap, though he didn't play this week so may be injured.

Ojomoh needs to move on from Bath to somewhere he's going to get more game time.


I'm still against Freeman at 13, I think his pace, height and attacking flair would be far more useful in the back three. Particularly fullback.

[Raggs]

Ojomoh had like 3/4 games for Bath last season where he looked like he was setting himself up to be their long term 12, then they dropped him for a more experienced head if I recall correctly?

Lawrence and Freeman as 12/13 might work, but neither are great as playmakers that I've seen, and Lawrence seems much better at 13 (and I'm not positive about Freeman yet, but he'd make a great 23). Then you have Joseph who's also another 13 (who can cover wing).

I think if we've got Steward at 15, which seems sensible, then we need a 12 who has a bit more playmaking about him. If we used Marcus at 15, then Lawrence at 12 would be fine. I did start to like bringing Marcus on in the last 15/20 minutes at 15 though. Gave our attack some spark and options at hitting holes.

[Ovals]

Ojomoh had like 3/4 games for Bath last season where he looked like he was setting himself up to be their long term 12, then they dropped him for a more experienced head if I recall correctly?

Lawrence and Freeman as 12/13 might work, but neither are great as playmakers that I've seen, and Lawrence seems much better at 13 (and I'm not positive about Freeman yet, but he'd make a great 23). Then you have Joseph who's also another 13 (who can cover wing).

I think if we've got Steward at 15, which seems sensible, then we need a 12 who has a bit more playmaking about him. If we used Marcus at 15, then Lawrence at 12 would be fine. I did start to like bringing Marcus on in the last 15/20 minutes at 15 though. Gave our attack some spark and options at hitting holes.

Furbank has been really excellent at FB and offer a bit more in attack/playmaking than Steward. Can also cover FH.

[sockwithaticket]

That's very true, Furbank has been great for Saints of late.

Redpath seems to have established himself as Bath's first choice 12 and I doubt that's going to change barring injury given the national team 10-12 partnership that's now there with Russell.

I'm increasingly of the opinion that Stward being very strong under the high ball and a bit meh in defence isn't enough. Smith playing 15 also isn't worth pursuing any further. We didn't get to see him challenged much in the air in his cameos there and he's at a real height disadvantage against most players he's be competing with to claim a ball. Unless it's an injury emergency, he's a 10 only.

A second playmaker is a nice to have, not an essential. Ford has more than enough experience of running a Tigers backline where he didn't have one. With Quins Smith's additional playmaker is at 9 really and that can be somewhat replicated with Mitchell for England.

[Ovals]

That's very true, Furbank has been great for Saints of late.

Redpath seems to have established himself as Bath's first choice 12 and I doubt that's going to change barring injury given the national team 10-12 partnership that's now there with Russell.

I'm increasingly of the opinion that Stward being very strong under the high ball and a bit meh in defence isn't enough. Smith playing 15 also isn't worth pursuing any further. We didn't get to see him challenged much in the air in his cameos there and he's at a real height disadvantage against most players he's be competing with to claim a ball. Unless it's an injury emergency, he's a 10 only.

A second playmaker is a nice to have, not an essential. Ford has more than enough experience of running a Tigers backline where he didn't have one. With Quins Smith's additional playmaker is at 9 really and that can be somewhat replicated with Mitchell for England.

I don't want to see Smith at 15 - he'd be ok as cover from the bench but we've got much better starting options. For me, Steward is just a bit too limited. Furbank is in great form and has more to offer, without compromising on the basics.

[Hal Jordan]

Smith at 15 is insanity, but Borthwick would probably pick him and then put Steward on the wing to cover (and chase high kicks).

[SaintK]

Smith at 15 is insanity, but Borthwick would probably pick him and then put Steward on the wing to cover (and chase high kicks).

I really don't want to see Smith at 15 other than in an on-field emergency
Steward should be nowhere near the wing, he's far too slow both in attack and on the turn in defence.
There are wingers and full backs playing a lot better than he is in both positions currently. Roebuck on the wing for Sale and Furbank at full back for Saints on recent showings. Add in Freeman who is comfortable at either wing or full back and currently tearing it up at 13 and Carpenter playing full back at Sale who is continuing his form from last season.

[Ovals]

Smith at 15 is insanity, but Borthwick would probably pick him and then put Steward on the wing to cover (and chase high kicks).

I really don't want to see Smith at 15 other than in an on-field emergency
Steward should be nowhere near the wing, he's far too slow both in attack and on the turn in defence.
There are wingers and full backs playing a lot better than he is in both positions currently. Roebuck on the wing for Sale and Furbank at full back for Saints on recent showings. Add in Freeman who is comfortable at either wing or full back and currently tearing it up at 13 and Carpenter playing full back at Sale who is continuing his form from last season.

You just know that Borthers will play Mitchell, Ford, Big Joe, Lawrence, Tuilagi, Watson, Steward !!!!!!!

[Raggs]

Smith at 15 is insanity, but Borthwick would probably pick him and then put Steward on the wing to cover (and chase high kicks).

I really don't want to see Smith at 15 other than in an on-field emergency
Steward should be nowhere near the wing, he's far too slow both in attack and on the turn in defence.
There are wingers and full backs playing a lot better than he is in both positions currently. Roebuck on the wing for Sale and Furbank at full back for Saints on recent showings. Add in Freeman who is comfortable at either wing or full back and currently tearing it up at 13 and Carpenter playing full back at Sale who is continuing his form from last season.

You just know that Borthers will play Mitchell, Ford, Big Joe, Lawrence, Tuilagi, Watson, Steward !!!!!!!

The "you know what's coming, now try and stop it" approach. Give Ford a few options to choose from each phase and it'll make good yards.

[Hal Jordan]

Watson's done, I fear. Injuries have just piled up.

[Ovals]

Watson's done, I fear. Injuries have just piled up.

Looked pretty decent for the Tigers at the weekend - and we know how coaches like to stay with what they know, and love experience. He's still only 29 and hasn't got that many miles in his legs.

[SaintK]

Heyes and Martin have signed long term deals at Tigers.
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/leices ... rm-deals/

[petej]

Heyes and Martin have signed long term deals at Tigers.
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/leices ... rm-deals/

That's good news.

I noticed quirke is injured again which is rubbish.

[sockwithaticket]

Youngs has signed on for a 19th season too.

[petej]

Youngs has signed on for a 19th season too.

That's okay. Wouldn't be surprised if with a bit more rest due to not playing internationals he actually starts playing well again

[SaintK]

Heyes and Martin have signed long term deals at Tigers.
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/leices ... rm-deals/

That's good news.

I noticed quirke is injured again which is rubbish.

Yep, damaged a ligament in his foot against Leinster
Bevan Rodd also out as needs an op on a tendon in his foot