The Official English Rugby Thread

[Lobby]

Yeah I thought Ford played very well ball in hand. Kicking another story of course but that happens

The kicking off the tee was really quite poor. I was expecting that to come back and bite us.

What's Furbank like off the tee, I wonder? We should go back to 15s kicking for goal.

Slade is the obvious alternative as he's kicked several pressure kicks for Exeter this season.

[inactionman]

Yeah I thought Ford played very well ball in hand. Kicking another story of course but that happens

The kicking off the tee was really quite poor. I was expecting that to come back and bite us.

What's Furbank like off the tee, I wonder? We should go back to 15s kicking for goal.

Slade is the obvious alternative as he's kicked several pressure kicks for Exeter this season.

Yep, he's already taking on a few touchfinders so he could step up.

Not sure if it would be a benefit to Ford, to take away pressure, or a slap in the face. Didn't we once end up with Tindall kicking when Charlie Hodgson had a few wobbles? The ignomony.

[Ovals]

The kicking off the tee was really quite poor. I was expecting that to come back and bite us.

What's Furbank like off the tee, I wonder? We should go back to 15s kicking for goal.

Slade is the obvious alternative as he's kicked several pressure kicks for Exeter this season.

Yep, he's already taking on a few touchfinders so he could step up.

Not sure if it would be a benefit to Ford, to take away pressure, or a slap in the face. Didn't we once end up with Tindall kicking when Charlie Hodgson had a few wobbles? The ignomony.

Maybe let Slade take penalties from the right of the posts, Ford from the left.

[inactionman]

Slade is the obvious alternative as he's kicked several pressure kicks for Exeter this season.

Yep, he's already taking on a few touchfinders so he could step up.

Not sure if it would be a benefit to Ford, to take away pressure, or a slap in the face. Didn't we once end up with Tindall kicking when Charlie Hodgson had a few wobbles? The ignomony.

Maybe let Slade take penalties from the right of the posts, Ford from the left.

Would make sense for those wide out right, definitely.

From memory, Ford missed a pretty regulation chance just to the left of the posts. I'm making a bit of hay here, he's generally OK from the tee but just had an off-day, but I've thought you'd want a backup in case of wobbles. Even Farrell had a few bad days (I'm referring to kicking here, lest our celtic cousins pipe up).

[Mahoney]

The kicking off the tee was really quite poor. I was expecting that to come back and bite us.

What's Furbank like off the tee, I wonder? We should go back to 15s kicking for goal.

Slade is the obvious alternative as he's kicked several pressure kicks for Exeter this season.

Yep, he's already taking on a few touchfinders so he could step up.

Not sure if it would be a benefit to Ford, to take away pressure, or a slap in the face. Didn't we once end up with Tindall kicking when Charlie Hodgson had a few wobbles? The ignomony.

If I were a rugby coach my first rule would be that neither 9 or 10 kick goals ever. Being in a position where you pick your primary play makers based on a largely orthogonal skill, or else miss out on game deciding points, is fucking stupid.

I don't want my 9 or 10 wasting their training time (& fucking up their groins, hello Jonny) endlessly kicking at goal. 11-15 spend enough time standing around getting cold, one of them can invest in becoming an expert goal kicker.

Can you imagine what an NFL coach would make of picking their Quarterback based on their ability to kick field goals?

[sockwithaticket]

Yep, he's already taking on a few touchfinders so he could step up.

Not sure if it would be a benefit to Ford, to take away pressure, or a slap in the face. Didn't we once end up with Tindall kicking when Charlie Hodgson had a few wobbles? The ignomony.

Maybe let Slade take penalties from the right of the posts, Ford from the left.

Would make sense for those wide out right, definitely.

From memory, Ford missed a pretty regulation chance just to the left of the posts. I'm making a bit of hay here, he's generally OK from the tee but just had an off-day, but I've thought you'd want a backup in case of wobbles. Even Farrell had a few bad days (I'm referring to kicking here, lest our celtic cousins pipe up).

Having the back up is one thing, the captain or coach making the call and deciding that the front line kicker needs to be swapped is another. As had been pointed out by you all, in Slade and Furbank there were two alternatives in the starting side and then there were Smith and Daly to call upon from the bench. Although I am of a mind that calling Daly a goal kicker is a bit much, the only kicks he takes in match situations are those long distance ones and success is very 50/50 (if that!).

[Hal Jordan]

When was the last time Daly"s Massive Boot converted a long penalty?

[Hal Jordan]

The RFU sent me a survey about my matchday experience last weekend. I said:-

Stop playing music at breaks in play, especially when players are injured.
Don't give a toss about flames, pre-match singalongs or half time excitement.
More bars.
More toilets.
The match generates the atmosphere, not the stadium flim flam.

[Paddington Bear]

Yep, he's already taking on a few touchfinders so he could step up.

Not sure if it would be a benefit to Ford, to take away pressure, or a slap in the face. Didn't we once end up with Tindall kicking when Charlie Hodgson had a few wobbles? The ignomony.

Maybe let Slade take penalties from the right of the posts, Ford from the left.

Would make sense for those wide out right, definitely.

From memory, Ford missed a pretty regulation chance just to the left of the posts. I'm making a bit of hay here, he's generally OK from the tee but just had an off-day, but I've thought you'd want a backup in case of wobbles. Even Farrell had a few bad days (I'm referring to kicking here, lest our celtic cousins pipe up).

There’s a confidence element to this - if you have a proper goal kicker like Faz/Ford/Smith and you take the tee off of them you’re implicitly saying you don’t trust them, with possible overspill to the rest of their game. Fundamentally Ford shouldn’t be missing kicks from bang in front, and you’d back him to not do it too often. I’m confident he’d have also knocked over the dg/penalty advantage at the end

[Hal Jordan]

Feyi-Waboso out with a concussion. Arse.

[Oxbow]

Shite. Daly back then probably.

[sockwithaticket]

England pick the same backline in consecutive tests challenge: impossible.

Since they're in the squad I'd like to see Roebuck or Muir come to reaffirm the commitment to a balanced back three rather than Daly, but it's going to be Daly.

The RFU sent me a survey about my matchday experience last weekend. I said:-

Stop playing music at breaks in play, especially when players are injured.
Don't give a toss about flames, pre-match singalongs or half time excitement.
More bars.
More toilets.
The match generates the atmosphere, not the stadium flim flam.

Good feedback.

[JM2K6]

The kicking off the tee was really quite poor. I was expecting that to come back and bite us.

What's Furbank like off the tee, I wonder? We should go back to 15s kicking for goal.

Slade is the obvious alternative as he's kicked several pressure kicks for Exeter this season.

Yep, he's already taking on a few touchfinders so he could step up.

Not sure if it would be a benefit to Ford, to take away pressure, or a slap in the face. Didn't we once end up with Tindall kicking when Charlie Hodgson had a few wobbles? The ignomony.

Hodgson missed two kicks then got a dead leg, Henry Paul had already been subbed off after 25 minutes, and first Gomersall then Tindall had to take over the kicking.

People never remember the injury...

[Lobby]

Slade is the obvious alternative as he's kicked several pressure kicks for Exeter this season.

Yep, he's already taking on a few touchfinders so he could step up.

Not sure if it would be a benefit to Ford, to take away pressure, or a slap in the face. Didn't we once end up with Tindall kicking when Charlie Hodgson had a few wobbles? The ignomony.

Hodgson missed two kicks then got a dead leg, Henry Paul had already been subbed off after 25 minutes, and first Gomersall then Tindall had to take over the kicking.

People never remember the injury...

IIRC Tindall's penalty kicks were successful as well and he therefore has a 100% kicking record.

[Tichtheid]

Joe Marler does make me chuckle sometimes

[geordie_6]

Joe Marler does make me chuckle sometimes

There was a lovely bit from Big Joe recently. He was signing autographs after a training session, and the little girl next in line didn't have space on her mini ball for him to sign. So Marler toddles off, grabs a ball from the training session to sign and give to her instead.

[Slick]

Joe Marler does make me chuckle sometimes

Look at that fucking face at the end

[JM2K6]

It's great innit

[inactionman]

Christian Wade heading home (well, Gloucester)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68558784

If I was cynical I'd point out it's Glos swapping one NFL wannabe for another, but I think the Premiership is all the better for having players like Wade in it.

He put in a few tries for Racing, some were walk-ins but still good gas.

[Paddington Bear]

He’s fun to watch, I’m more likely to stick a game on with people like him involved

[sockwithaticket]

20 tries needed to usurp Ashton at the top of the all time try scorer list. Hope he really goes for it.

Gloucester have also confirmed signing Gareth Anscombe at fly half which seems an odd move given that they've just rid themselves of another injury ravaged international fly half in Hastings and have Charlie Atkinson at their disposal.

[petej]

Slade is the obvious alternative as he's kicked several pressure kicks for Exeter this season.

Yep, he's already taking on a few touchfinders so he could step up.

Not sure if it would be a benefit to Ford, to take away pressure, or a slap in the face. Didn't we once end up with Tindall kicking when Charlie Hodgson had a few wobbles? The ignomony.

If I were a rugby coach my first rule would be that neither 9 or 10 kick goals ever. Being in a position where you pick your primary play makers based on a largely orthogonal skill, or else miss out on game deciding points, is fucking stupid.

I don't want my 9 or 10 wasting their training time (& fucking up their groins, hello Jonny) endlessly kicking at goal. 11-15 spend enough time standing around getting cold, one of them can invest in becoming an expert goal kicker.

Can you imagine what an NFL coach would make of picking their Quarterback based on their ability to kick field goals?

The dominance of fly half's kicking for goal is strange.i swear that more full backs used to do it.

[Tichtheid]

Yep, he's already taking on a few touchfinders so he could step up.

Not sure if it would be a benefit to Ford, to take away pressure, or a slap in the face. Didn't we once end up with Tindall kicking when Charlie Hodgson had a few wobbles? The ignomony.

If I were a rugby coach my first rule would be that neither 9 or 10 kick goals ever. Being in a position where you pick your primary play makers based on a largely orthogonal skill, or else miss out on game deciding points, is fucking stupid.

I don't want my 9 or 10 wasting their training time (& fucking up their groins, hello Jonny) endlessly kicking at goal. 11-15 spend enough time standing around getting cold, one of them can invest in becoming an expert goal kicker.

Can you imagine what an NFL coach would make of picking their Quarterback based on their ability to kick field goals?

The dominance of fly half's kicking for goal is strange.i swear that more full backs used to do it.

Bring back the big second rows toe-punting the ball straight on

[Lobby]

Yep, he's already taking on a few touchfinders so he could step up.

Not sure if it would be a benefit to Ford, to take away pressure, or a slap in the face. Didn't we once end up with Tindall kicking when Charlie Hodgson had a few wobbles? The ignomony.

If I were a rugby coach my first rule would be that neither 9 or 10 kick goals ever. Being in a position where you pick your primary play makers based on a largely orthogonal skill, or else miss out on game deciding points, is fucking stupid.

I don't want my 9 or 10 wasting their training time (& fucking up their groins, hello Jonny) endlessly kicking at goal. 11-15 spend enough time standing around getting cold, one of them can invest in becoming an expert goal kicker.

Can you imagine what an NFL coach would make of picking their Quarterback based on their ability to kick field goals?

The dominance of fly half's kicking for goal is strange.i swear that more full backs used to do it.

Callard and Webb for England, Gavin Hastings for Scotland, Paul Thorburn for Wales etc. all full backs. It seems to mainly since Wilkinson that there's an expectation that the fly half has to kick goals and also that this should be his primary focus.

[Monk]

If I were a rugby coach my first rule would be that neither 9 or 10 kick goals ever. Being in a position where you pick your primary play makers based on a largely orthogonal skill, or else miss out on game deciding points, is fucking stupid.

I don't want my 9 or 10 wasting their training time (& fucking up their groins, hello Jonny) endlessly kicking at goal. 11-15 spend enough time standing around getting cold, one of them can invest in becoming an expert goal kicker.

Can you imagine what an NFL coach would make of picking their Quarterback based on their ability to kick field goals?

The dominance of fly half's kicking for goal is strange.i swear that more full backs used to do it.

Callard and Webb for England, Gavin Hastings for Scotland, Paul Thorburn for Wales etc. all full backs. It seems to mainly since Wilkinson that there's an expectation that the fly half has to kick goals and also that this should be his primary focus.

This is just so different from my memory of things and from what the record shows.

[JM2K6]

I reckon you'll find the change either happened slowly over time, or came about with professionalism. Wilko taking kicks was expected. NZ had Merhtens then Carter. Aussies clung on to the older ways because Larkham was not good off the tee but they had multiple alternatives elsewhere. SA had good kicking 10s but still used a fullback for the 95 Lions.

Probably a sign of changing routines in development pathways or something. If no one is asking you to kick goals, no one will know you can do it. I wonder how many non flyhalf goal kickers in the modern game played a decent amount of 10 growing up...

[Plim]

John Eales. Lock. Pen kicker.

[inactionman]

It's been a good while since I've seen one, but a penalty kick shootout in cup competitions is usually a bit of a laugh, especially once it gets to the forwards.

Although I remember Martyn Williams missing one in sudden death for cardiff, which seemed a bit cruel as he was one of the better players on the park

[Lobby]

It's been a good while since I've seen one, but a penalty kick shootout in cup competitions is usually a bit of a laugh, especially once it gets to the forwards.

Although I remember Martyn Williams missing one in sudden death for cardiff, which seemed a bit cruel as he was one of the better players on the park

It was a terrible kick TBF (about 9:30 into this video)

[petej]

It's been a good while since I've seen one, but a penalty kick shootout in cup competitions is usually a bit of a laugh, especially once it gets to the forwards.

Although I remember Martyn Williams missing one in sudden death for cardiff, which seemed a bit cruel as he was one of the better players on the park

Just didn't have the footballing skills of Jordan crane. Wasn't Tom James called feet like hoofs or hands like feet?

[inactionman]

It's been a good while since I've seen one, but a penalty kick shootout in cup competitions is usually a bit of a laugh, especially once it gets to the forwards.

Although I remember Martyn Williams missing one in sudden death for cardiff, which seemed a bit cruel as he was one of the better players on the park

Just didn't have the footballing skills of Jordan crane.

It really rubs it in, doesn't it.

[petej]

It's been a good while since I've seen one, but a penalty kick shootout in cup competitions is usually a bit of a laugh, especially once it gets to the forwards.

Although I remember Martyn Williams missing one in sudden death for cardiff, which seemed a bit cruel as he was one of the better players on the park

Just didn't have the footballing skills of Jordan crane.

It really rubs it in, doesn't it.

I had forgotten how brilliant that was.

[Paddington Bear]

I am certain Ben Skirving - ex-Sarries back rower - kicked at goal a bit. Definitely in some cup games

[SaintK]

If I were a rugby coach my first rule would be that neither 9 or 10 kick goals ever. Being in a position where you pick your primary play makers based on a largely orthogonal skill, or else miss out on game deciding points, is fucking stupid.

I don't want my 9 or 10 wasting their training time (& fucking up their groins, hello Jonny) endlessly kicking at goal. 11-15 spend enough time standing around getting cold, one of them can invest in becoming an expert goal kicker.

Can you imagine what an NFL coach would make of picking their Quarterback based on their ability to kick field goals?

The dominance of fly half's kicking for goal is strange.i swear that more full backs used to do it.

Bring back the big second rows toe-punting the ball straight on

Peter Brown

[petej]

Referee in the glos tigers match has decided the winner with a 2nd half comedy effort.

Just a terrible match. Should have watched the u20s which is a higher standard. Crap from tigers to not really try to show any ambition until too late.

[Paddington Bear]

Are we happy to say a corner has clearly been turned now? Gutted by the ending but a performance to be proud of. Plenty still to work on but suddenly the attack is really purring.

[Ovals]

Are we happy to say a corner has clearly been turned now? Gutted by the ending but a performance to be proud of. Plenty still to work on but suddenly the attack is really purring.

I think so - but there's still plenty of growth to come. Give the coaches another year or two and we could be right up there.

We also need to build a bench that doesn't let our game drop off when they come on - might mean giving some other players starts to get them up to the right level.

[Paddington Bear]

Are we happy to say a corner has clearly been turned now? Gutted by the ending but a performance to be proud of. Plenty still to work on but suddenly the attack is really purring.

I think so - but there's still plenty of growth to come. Give the coaches another year or two and we could be right up there.

We also need to build a bench that doesn't let our game drop off when they come on - might mean giving some other players starts to get them up to the right level.

Yeah agree, plenty still to iron out. It’s a shame the NZ tour isn’t in 18 months - it feels like it will be far too hard for now

[Ovals]

Are we happy to say a corner has clearly been turned now? Gutted by the ending but a performance to be proud of. Plenty still to work on but suddenly the attack is really purring.

I think so - but there's still plenty of growth to come. Give the coaches another year or two and we could be right up there.

We also need to build a bench that doesn't let our game drop off when they come on - might mean giving some other players starts to get them up to the right level.

Yeah agree, plenty still to iron out. It’s a shame the NZ tour isn’t in 18 months - it feels like it will be far too hard for now

We certainly need to build depth in some positions - currently there's a big drop off in some positions - a few injuries to guys like Lawrence and Earl, would be difficult to cover atm. We saw a similar drop off even when a rookie like Wabosi was out injured. It'll take some time and patience.

[JM2K6]

Are we happy to say a corner has clearly been turned now? Gutted by the ending but a performance to be proud of. Plenty still to work on but suddenly the attack is really purring.

According to Ford (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/ ... h-rugby-on ) it really seems like the Scotland loss was a turning point. Everyone recognised that the attack had been an absolute shitshow and the rugby was miserable with little chance of beating good teams. The resulting change is exactly what everyone has been crying out for for a long time.

The turning point for this campaign – maybe for Borthwick’s tenure, too – came in the aftermath of the error strewn defeat by Scotland. The squad promised “unbelievably honest” conversations when they gathered in York for the second fallow week and it is understood that some senior players, even some of Borthwick’s staff, challenged him to allow more time to be spent working on attack in training. You could see the absence of it in the clunkiness at Murrayfield, the handling errors, the unfamiliarity and the lack of cohesion in what England were doing.

The focus up to that point had been to drill into the players Felix Jones’s new defensive system but for the two-week buildup to facing Ireland the attack was polished and the results were evident at Twickenham. Against France, having withstood a first-half onslaught, it was similarly electric as they fought back from 16-3 down.

“Our mindset since Scotland has been to really go at teams with ball in hand,” the fly‑half George Ford said. “Be a threat, ask questions, fire shots, be that attacking team, be on the front foot a lot more. I think you’ve seen that the last two weeks. We had to front up after that [Scotland] game. We had to make a choice. It was off the back of that game when we had to have a few honest conversations about things and decide what team we want to be.”

...

“We definitely went to one side of the spectrum and that’s what the whole conversation was since that [Scotland] game; that we needed to shift the other way.”

Against France it was Ben Earl – yet again one of the standout performers on the field – and Ollie Lawrence giving the go‑forward that makes it so much easier for Ford to play flat. We saw it with Marcus Smith’s try, after Earl had made the break, but perhaps it was Tommy Freeman’s score, after quick hands from Ford and Smith, that gives supporters most reason for cheer.

So how would Ford sum up the new England way?

“Flatter to the line, running into gaps, running into spaces, creating one-on-ones, getting quick ball at the ruck and being at them. The penny has dropped in terms of what type of team we want to be and how dangerous we can be.”

It's this public recognition of the problem, the willingness of the squad + staff to challenge Borthwick, and the implicit mea culpa from him about the approach so far that makes me more confident than the actual displays since then. This really does seem to be a sea change in attitude, and that's great to see. Obviously it's ridiculous that it has taken so, so long to get it through to Borthwick that defence & kicking alone will not get you far, but I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth and there are plenty of people in his position who would have dismissed the concerns.

There are still problems, of course. Selecting Manu on the bench and Daly to start meant that we were poorly balanced. Marcus Smith is not a fullback and we really should stop trying to make him one. Underhill spent most of the first half missing heaps of tackles. The defence looks like it will always hand one or two tries a match to the opposition on a plate. The first half kicking display was poor and we shot ourselves in the foot far too often. But the turnaround at half time and the desire to attack was great to see, exactly the sort of willingness to examine the match situation and recognise when a plan needs to change. Ford's display shows why he's held in such high regard.

If they keep to this blueprint then we're in a much better position to get the best out of the players we're producing. We should look to move on in the summer from Marler, Care, Daly, Tuilagi, Cole, et al. In some cases (Marler/Cole) I can understand taking them on tour and making use of them in the Tests, but this will be a great opportunity to see what the likes of Fin Baxter can do against quality teams while turning out for a side with a commitment to attacking rugby. The others are just stopping players from getting much needed game time and not really offering us much in return bar the odd cameo.