The one and only UK 2024 election thread - July 4

[Paddington Bear]

Key campaigner for the new independent Leicester MP has been arrested under counter-terror charges. What a pandora’s box we have opened

[Uncle fester]

I thought the point of Brexit was that we wanted BRITISH (and therefore superior) institutions in charge instead of "foreign" ones

Ultimately they don't want any institutions implementing pesky things like H&S laws or environmental regulations because they get in the way of things like "innovation" and "growth".

Once you knock out the EU bodies, then you water down the domestic ones and turn the country into the US.

They have succeeded in certain areas like water. It just hasn't gone down very well with the public.

Yep, more distracting culture war bollocks required.

[petej]

Ultimately they don't want any institutions implementing pesky things like H&S laws or environmental regulations because they get in the way of things like "innovation" and "growth".

Once you knock out the EU bodies, then you water down the domestic ones and turn the country into the US.

They have succeeded in certain areas like water. It just hasn't gone down very well with the public.

Yep, more distracting culture war bollocks required.

Water companies aren't going to reduce profitability by treating water when they can innovate by moving monitoring stations upstream of where they are dumping shit or if the fines are far cheaper than the treatment chemicals or properly maintaining a treatment facility. This is the sort of innovation that "free markets" can provide. There is a delusion in the right wing that seems to assume that companies will innovate even if it would lead to reduced profits. Most of these things are balancing acts but by leaving it totally to free markets you are reducing your power, so in many areas the likes of Truss reduce their power themselves.

[Hal Jordan]

Could we agree on the racist/intelligence/fuckwit conundrum that it is perfectly possible to be a racist with a high degree of intelligence, but that all racists, irrespective of brainpower, are societal fuckwits?

[Biffer]

They have succeeded in certain areas like water. It just hasn't gone down very well with the public.

Yep, more distracting culture war bollocks required.

Water companies aren't going to reduce profitability by treating water when they can innovate by moving monitoring stations upstream of where they are dumping shit or if the fines are far cheaper than the treatment chemicals or properly maintaining a treatment facility. This is the sort of innovation that "free markets" can provide. There is a delusion in the right wing that seems to assume that companies will innovate even if it would lead to reduced profits. Most of these things are balancing acts but by leaving it totally to free markets you are reducing your power, so in many areas the likes of Truss reduce their power themselves.

Companies only innovate to improve quality where the consumer has a choice and is well informed.

[_Os_]

Could we agree on the racist/intelligence/fuckwit conundrum that it is perfectly possible to be a racist with a high degree of intelligence, but that all racists, irrespective of brainpower, are societal fuckwits?

Racism is fundamentally irrational. Someone who's intelligent and is racist is likely to have thought it out more and elevated it into fully formed conspiracy theories unsupported by science, they're far more likely to believe a whole load of mad shit on the subject. The single biggest determinant of someone believing any conspiracy theory is if they already believe another conspiracy theory.

There's a chunk of the UK electorate that is now fully beyond reason, around 10% and not more than 20%. They're fundamentally irrational and it's pointless talking to them. Conspiracies are now fairly common and cover: climate change, Covid, vaccines, WEF, UN, EU, race, pedestrian friendly cities, money. The right in the UK now often explains significant events through conspiracy. In this election Farage's explanation for racist and/or fascist Reform supporters/candidates was they were not real and were paid actors, this was believed by his supporters, despite the Facebook groups they were part of and their own filmed comments being beyond dispute.

Have you ever wondered why GB News is rammed with conspiracy theories not directly related to their agenda? It's because once someone is unmoored they'll believe anything. It's now totally normal in the UK to find people on the right who believe the EU is a some sort of secret plot to undermine the UK, Ukraine and NATO are to blame for Russia's invasion of Ukraine, Covid vaccines are responsible for a secret genocide, the civil service is a woke lefty blob secretly running the UK without the permission of elected officials, there is a secret plan to replace whites, climate change is a hoax. If you want someone to believe anything their racism is an excellent starting point to exploit.

It's pointless trying to convince them otherwise. "You're a fuckwit" is much quicker.

[Slick]

I've seen the "it's all going to crypto" one a lot more since DAC introduced us to it a couple of weeks ago.

[Hal Jordan]

I don't think that the conspiracy types are a new thing, they were always there, but in the old days your would have needed to leave the house to seek out fellow loons, or subscribe to a physical mailing list or similar.

With the internet, it's all there for the finding.

It also doesn't help that there always some genuinely shady things that the powers that be get up to, be it the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, the Post Office scandal or what have you, which fuel the narrative of conspiracy theories.

[JM2K6]

Key campaigner for the new independent Leicester MP has been arrested under counter-terror charges. What a pandora’s box we have opened

What do you mean by that

[fishfoodie]

Key campaigner for the new independent Leicester MP has been arrested under counter-terror charges. What a pandora’s box we have opened

What do you mean by that

Hell you've had convicted terrorists elected MPs; a single campaigner is small beans

[fishfoodie]

What brilliant negotiators the Tories were !

The team that brought you Brexit, the NZ & Oz trade deals strike again.

Rwanda has said it is not required to refund the UK after a multi-million pound migrant deal between the two countries was scrapped.

New UK Prime Minister and Labour Party leader Keir Starmer announced at the weekend that the plan to deport some asylum seekers to Rwanda was "dead and buried".

The scheme was forged by the previous Conservative government, which since revealing the plan in 2022 has paid Rwanda £240m ($310m).
...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2lkqegz5k7o

A figure which sounds on the low end of previous estimates if anything

[Random1]

Here’s Stewart talking through some of the issues.

He discusses the civil service and other aspects, and his overall thoughts are quite fucking depressing!

[fishfoodie]

FFS, the haunted Victorian pencil is doing a reality tv series

Hasn't the public suffered enough ?

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radi ... ty-tv-star

[_Os_]

I don't think that the conspiracy types are a new thing, they were always there, but in the old days your would have needed to leave the house to seek out fellow loons, or subscribe to a physical mailing list or similar.

With the internet, it's all there for the finding.

It also doesn't help that there always some genuinely shady things that the powers that be get up to, be it the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, the Post Office scandal or what have you, which fuel the narrative of conspiracy theories.

The Tories took it to an unseen before level. Johnson in the Commons accusing Starmer of supporting Jimmy Saville, Johnson's advisor quit over this because it was so crazy, Johnson literally grabbed that from some of the darkest corners of the far right online and used it at the despatch box. Harper at the Tory conference going full 15 minute city conspiracy and saying councils wanted to control how often you went to the shops (from memory he then junked an entirely sensible plan around pedestrianisation and cycle routes?). Braverman wading so deep into great replacement theory that the only thing she didn't say was the term used to describe her beliefs. Truss keeps repeating she was PM but had no power. Farage being invited to the Tory conference and literally dancing with cabinet ministers, someone who believes the Ukraine is to blame for its invasion conspiracy and keeps repeating it in different ways ("Putin is a brilliant leader" etc), someone that has repeated Covid vaccine stuff, someone onboard with the 15 minute city and WEF stuff, someone like Braverman very much adjacent to the great replacement conspiracy theory. And they all believe the conspiracy that the EU, a quite boring technocrat trade and political bloc, is a great enemy attempting to undermine the UK.

All unprecedented.

[_Os_]

If you're paying close attention, some of them keep mentioning the Dorries book (The Plot). Johnson was removed because he lied to parliament and couldn't keep his party together and behind him, they abandoned him and selected Truss, when Truss blew up the economy they abandoned her and selected Sunak. If that's a conspiracy all politics is. Dorries tries to turn the removal of Big Dog into a conspiracy.

Francois thinks the vote for the new 1922 committee chair is a conspiracy, just like in The Plot. The book is becoming a sort of Bible for the Tory right. Quite a few of them now see the world entirely through simple conspiracy theories ... "We overwhelmingly lost this vote, just like in The Plot".

Mark Francois said to Bob Blackman following last night's 1922 Committee Chair vote
"You just have to read The Plot, this is completely bent"
He confronted Blackman in the Strangers Bar
Francois told Blackman to "re-run" the vote after Tory MPs received mixed messages over when it'd end
"I’m sick and tired of all the bloody shenanigans"
Brandishing a copy of the Daily Mail, he said “there'd be riots” if what happened last night occurred at a general election
In response to Francois, Blackman said "of course it's a mandate"
He added that re-running the election would only be necessary if there had been “one or two votes in it” but he beat Tory veteran Clifton Brown by 61 votes to 37
A Tory MP at the 1922 Chair hustings told PolHome: “He [Francois] is out of control.
“We’ve just had the shellacking of a lifetime, a significant part of which has been due to division & psychodrama as opposed to focussing on our constituents.
“We need to wind our necks in.”

[tabascoboy]

"Woke" is still all to blame

The Unpopular ‘Popular Conservatives’ Blame the Voters for Their Own Defeat

Now is not the time for blame”, the Conservative activist and journalist Annunziata Rees-Mogg suggested to her colleagues at the start of the ‘Popular Conservatism’ conference on Tuesday.

It was not a suggestion which any of them seemed willing to countenance.

Instead, over the course of more than three hours, a series of unelected and recently de-elected Conservative politicians revealed a long list people and institutions they blamed for the fact that their own brand of ‘Popular Conservatism’ had inexplicably proved to be quite so unpopular.
...

“I am sceptical of some of the suggestions that elections are always won from the centre ground”, Littlewood explained to his colleagues.

“The true challenge, of course, is to get whatever the centre is to move towards you.”

And with that intervention the task for the ‘Popular Conservatives’ became immediately clear.

Don’t worry about your ideas being unpopular. Don’t worry about the fact that you’ve just lost your seats in the biggest rejection of your party in its history.

Just keep offering the voters even more of what they just loudly told you they didn’t want, while lecturing them about how you were right all along.

What could possibly go wrong?

Full item https://bylinetimes.com/2024/07/10/popu ... el-farage/

[SaintK]

Francois wasd re-elected?

[tabascoboy]

The Information Commissioner’s Office wrote to the Conservatives after their candidate for London mayor, Susan Hall, sent out leaflets, prior to the election in May, which were designed to look like driving penalty notices.

https://bylinetimes.com/2024/07/12/cons ... arvesting/

[Paddington Bear]

"Woke" is still all to blame

The Unpopular ‘Popular Conservatives’ Blame the Voters for Their Own Defeat

Now is not the time for blame”, the Conservative activist and journalist Annunziata Rees-Mogg suggested to her colleagues at the start of the ‘Popular Conservatism’ conference on Tuesday.

It was not a suggestion which any of them seemed willing to countenance.

Instead, over the course of more than three hours, a series of unelected and recently de-elected Conservative politicians revealed a long list people and institutions they blamed for the fact that their own brand of ‘Popular Conservatism’ had inexplicably proved to be quite so unpopular.
...

“I am sceptical of some of the suggestions that elections are always won from the centre ground”, Littlewood explained to his colleagues.

“The true challenge, of course, is to get whatever the centre is to move towards you.”

And with that intervention the task for the ‘Popular Conservatives’ became immediately clear.

Don’t worry about your ideas being unpopular. Don’t worry about the fact that you’ve just lost your seats in the biggest rejection of your party in its history.

Just keep offering the voters even more of what they just loudly told you they didn’t want, while lecturing them about how you were right all along.

What could possibly go wrong?

Full item https://bylinetimes.com/2024/07/10/popu ... el-farage/

It’s fascinating that almost no one in the Tory party realises that the primary reason they have been decimated is not because they were too centrist or too right wing, it’s because just about everyone thought they were incompetent!

Only Hunt seems to have any grasp of that, and shock he bucked the local trends and held his seat. They have an absolute mountain to climb to get back into government, and a well run Lib Dems could genuinely overtake them in the South

[Raggs]

You do get them mentioning that they didn't do enough of something etc here and there, generally though it often leads into them thinking they weren't right wing enough etc. Don't think I've seen any of them suggest that the vip lanes for covid, and general incompetence were the issue though. Completely incapable of proper self reflection I suspect.

I'm hoping the lib dems are going full force for their constituents, hold onto every seat they've gained. Labour will be judged on how they run the country more than anything else, LD need to focus on the local.

[robmatic]

I'm hoping the lib dems are going full force for their constituents, hold onto every seat they've gained. Labour will be judged on how they run the country more than anything else, LD need to focus on the local.

The Lib Dems focusing on local politics probably means even more rampant nimbyism.

[Lobby]

It’s fascinating that almost no one in the Tory party realises that the primary reason they have been decimated is not because they were too centrist or too right wing, it’s because just about everyone thought they were incompetent!

Only Hunt seems to have any grasp of that, and shock he bucked the local trends and held his seat. They have an absolute mountain to climb to get back into government, and a well run Lib Dems could genuinely overtake them in the South

Talking of Tories with zero self knowledge, I saw this report of Liz Truss's attendance at the recent Spectator Party:

"Truss, who is both a former PM and a former MP after losing her seat last Thursday, told us that she was “feeling good” and thinking about her role in the future of the Conservative party. Namechecking Keith Joseph, the Tory MP who founded the Centre for Policy Studies think tank and laid the ideological groundwork for Thatcherism, Truss said: “Maybe I could be that figure.” She reminded us that she recently founded the Growth Commission think-tank. “I’m just trying to work out if this is 1970 or 1974,” she said."

She's completely bonkers if she thinks she is the person who will set out the ideological groundwork for the Tory Party's future. If they follow her ideas, they'll be doomed to electoral oblivion.

[Tichtheid]

You do get them mentioning that they didn't do enough of something etc here and there, generally though it often leads into them thinking they weren't right wing enough etc. Don't think I've seen any of them suggest that the vip lanes for covid, and general incompetence were the issue though. Completely incapable of proper self reflection I suspect.

I'm hoping the lib dems are going full force for their constituents, hold onto every seat they've gained. Labour will be judged on how they run the country more than anything else, LD need to focus on the local.

It usually take a wee while for a decent amount of research into what were the voters' reasons is published, but I'll be very surprised if along with the incompetence, another big factor will have been the corruption and the complete disdain some of them showed over the worst period most of us will have lived through during lockdown and the pandemic in general.

[fishfoodie]

You do get them mentioning that they didn't do enough of something etc here and there, generally though it often leads into them thinking they weren't right wing enough etc. Don't think I've seen any of them suggest that the vip lanes for covid, and general incompetence were the issue though. Completely incapable of proper self reflection I suspect.

I'm hoping the lib dems are going full force for their constituents, hold onto every seat they've gained. Labour will be judged on how they run the country more than anything else, LD need to focus on the local.

It usually take a wee while for a decent amount of research into what were the voters' reasons is published, but I'll be very surprised if along with the incompetence, another big factor will have been the corruption and the complete disdain some of them showed over the worst period most of us will have lived through during lockdown and the pandemic in general.

As you say, it's early days to be calling what swayed voters most, but a few reports contradicted the Tories line that Partygate wasn't a factor.

I think we'll find it was a combination of the general incompetance, & corruption, but mostly driven by the consequences of 14 years of Tory rule, that were right in every voters face; inflation, the NHS, a Criminal Justice system in crisis, Housing, the consequences of Brexit, Mortgage rates thru the roof, etc, etc.

These are the things that people not earning 6 figure salaries think are important, but most Tory MPs were completely oblivious to.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

worth keeping in mind mortgage rates are hardly through the roof, historically they'd be on the low side.

luckily I'm sure the banks haven't been lending irresponsibly, again. but at least this time it'll be the taxpayer exposed, some real change there

[fishfoodie]

worth keeping in mind mortgage rates are hardly through the roof, historically they'd be on the low side.

All things are relative, & for a generation who've know nothing but QE & zero interest rates, & who've watching their real terms salary in decline since 2008, it certainly feels like sky high levels !

luckily I'm sure the banks haven't been lending irresponsibly, again. but at least this time it'll be the taxpayer exposed, some real change there

Damn, another sarcasm meter broken

[Rhubarb & Custard]

For sure it's going to be a shock, indeed Labour and more importantly people and the economy will take a hit for the next few years from those looking to secure new mortgage deals moving onto higher rates, and the Tories will hit them for something they can't do much about, and it'll work. But still, the notion interest rates are especially high is risible

[lemonhead]

Rates, water bills up, many thousands of hardened criminals needing immediate release back on the streets to avoid the criminal justice system going into meltdown...

Yeah. I can see, even if shortsighted, there were a few reasons for Sunak to roll the dice. Always going to get snake eyes in return, but we were robbed the headline of the law and order party opening the floodgates. B'stards.

[fishfoodie]

For sure it's going to be a shock, indeed Labour and more importantly people and the economy will take a hit for the next few years from those looking to secure new mortgage deals moving onto higher rates, and the Tories will hit them for something they can't do much about, and it'll work. But still, the notion interest rates are especially high is risible

It's not about interest rate levels, it's about mortgage rate affordability

While the headline rate is much less than it was in say the 70s/80s, the affordability is much, much worse than it was when rates were 3x/4x higher !

And that's before you even get into the availability of housing & how you pay to furnish it, or pay for your transport from your suburban dream into your work & feed yourself, & pay off your University loans ( that your parents never had), etc, etc.

If there was one lesson I took from my childhood, it was that debt was slavery.

[TheNatalShark]

For sure it's going to be a shock, indeed Labour and more importantly people and the economy will take a hit for the next few years from those looking to secure new mortgage deals moving onto higher rates, and the Tories will hit them for something they can't do much about, and it'll work. But still, the notion interest rates are especially high is risible

It's not about interest rate levels, it's about mortgage rate affordability

While the headline rate is much less than it was in say the 70s/80s, the affordability is much, much worse than it was when rates were 3x/4x higher !

And that's before you even get into the availability of housing & how you pay to furnish it, or pay for your transport from your suburban dream into your work & feed yourself, & pay off your University loans ( that your parents never had), etc, etc.

If there was one lesson I took from my childhood, it was that debt was slavery.

Not to forget tax relief and then MIRAS

[tabascoboy]

Rates, water bills up, many thousands of hardened criminals needing immediate release back on the streets to avoid the criminal justice system going into meltdown...

Yeah. I can see, even if shortsighted, there were a few reasons for Sunak to roll the dice. Always going to get snake eyes in return, but we were robbed the headline of the law and order party opening the floodgates. B'stards.

And predictably the Tory simping press going with "Law and order breakdown in weeks!!!"

[petej]

Rates, water bills up, many thousands of hardened criminals needing immediate release back on the streets to avoid the criminal justice system going into meltdown...

Yeah. I can see, even if shortsighted, there were a few reasons for Sunak to roll the dice. Always going to get snake eyes in return, but we were robbed the headline of the law and order party opening the floodgates. B'stards.

And predictably the Tory simping press going with "Law and order breakdown in weeks!!!"

That press has lost hugely. Starmer wasn't Blair reaching an agreement with Murdoch. The Tory's lack living voters who have benefited from their rule. Not sure it matters what they say

[Rhubarb & Custard]

For sure it's going to be a shock, indeed Labour and more importantly people and the economy will take a hit for the next few years from those looking to secure new mortgage deals moving onto higher rates, and the Tories will hit them for something they can't do much about, and it'll work. But still, the notion interest rates are especially high is risible

It's not about interest rate levels, it's about mortgage rate affordability

While the headline rate is much less than it was in say the 70s/80s, the affordability is much, much worse than it was when rates were 3x/4x higher !

And that's before you even get into the availability of housing & how you pay to furnish it, or pay for your transport from your suburban dream into your work & feed yourself, & pay off your University loans ( that your parents never had), etc, etc.

If there was one lesson I took from my childhood, it was that debt was slavery.

All rather different points to whether mortgage rate are through the roof, and I'd still contend they're not, not even close if looking back over several decades

[epwc]

Someone on here was whingeing about charger points:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ar ... tallations

[Hal Jordan]

Someone on here was whingeing about charger points:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ar ... tallations

The thing that people tend to overlook about the 2030 thing and not enough chargers is that it's six years down the line. That will go quickly, but I have been driving EVs for seven years, and the charging landscape has changed dramatically. Back when I started, there were a couple of badly maintained Electric Highway chargers at selected service stations and the odd 3.5 or 7 kWh pumps dotted about the place. Nowadays, they are springing up all over the shop.

It's not perfect, but to say it will stand still for half a decade flies oh the face of the evidence.

[Raggs]

Someone on here was whingeing about charger points:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ar ... tallations

The thing that people tend to overlook about the 2030 thing and not enough chargers is that it's six years down the line. That will go quickly, but I have been driving EVs for seven years, and the charging landscape has changed dramatically. Back when I started, there were a couple of badly maintained Electric Highway chargers at selected service stations and the odd 3.5 or 7 kWh pumps dotted about the place. Nowadays, they are springing up all over the shop.

It's not perfect, but to say it will stand still for half a decade flies oh the face of the evidence.

There's loads of chargers around now, if you look at the zap map website, and combine that with the podpoint one, you can see just how widespread they are. Basically any large Tesco will have one.

We took our tiny old model renault zoe to a holiday (just getting us there and back), and just stopped in a tesco for a leisurely breakfast and that got us up there, and then had a lunch on the way back down. That's tiny battery, only 7kwh charge too. Always plenty of options around too. I can understand getting antsy when your range is only 60 miles, but even the cheap ones nowadays are generally 100 miles+

[inactionman]

Someone on here was whingeing about charger points:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ar ... tallations

The thing that people tend to overlook about the 2030 thing and not enough chargers is that it's six years down the line. That will go quickly, but I have been driving EVs for seven years, and the charging landscape has changed dramatically. Back when I started, there were a couple of badly maintained Electric Highway chargers at selected service stations and the odd 3.5 or 7 kWh pumps dotted about the place. Nowadays, they are springing up all over the shop.

It's not perfect, but to say it will stand still for half a decade flies oh the face of the evidence.

There's loads of chargers around now, if you look at the zap map website, and combine that with the podpoint one, you can see just how widespread they are. Basically any large Tesco will have one.

We took our tiny old model renault zoe to a holiday (just getting us there and back), and just stopped in a tesco for a leisurely breakfast and that got us up there, and then had a lunch on the way back down. That's tiny battery, only 7kwh charge too. Always plenty of options around too. I can understand getting antsy when your range is only 60 miles, but even the cheap ones nowadays are generally 100 miles+

The main problems we face are when the chargers or charging spaces are hogged. There's one at summerhall in Edinburgh (well, two, but one's bust) but of late a diesel work van is parked there pretty much all day. Edinburgh council have extended the time that someone is allowed to sit on the charger as well think it's now going to be 12 hours or something similar, so there's a few that are pretty much permanently tied up by someone dumptring their car on charge for the day.

We've also got the older 22kWH Zoe and I do get nervous when down to <20 miles range and I'm not sure if the chargers are going to be free.

Tescos ones do seem to be safer bets, as people are in and out more quickly, and the eso in Leith has fitted a few faster chargers - 22KWH for the older cars and the fasater DC ones for newer.

[shaggy]

I stupidly took my EV down to Cornwall in a rush to see an old friend who was suddenly taken ill. Had to charge twice and missed him by about 20mins. Would have made it in an ICE.

EVs can be great, they can also be a fucking pain in the arse.

[Sandstorm]

I stupidly took my EV down to Cornwall in a rush to see an old friend who was suddenly taken ill. Had to charge twice and missed him by about 20mins. Would have made it in an ICE.

EVs can be great, they can also be a fucking pain in the arse.

Sorry to hear this, mate

[epwc]

I stupidly took my EV down to Cornwall in a rush to see an old friend who was suddenly taken ill. Had to charge twice and missed him by about 20mins. Would have made it in an ICE.

EVs can be great, they can also be a fucking pain in the arse.

Sorry for your loss.