Kicking off in Israel

[Tichtheid]

if they're posting on social media organising a "jew hunt" it might, just might be something to do with them being jewish

I've spent around 20 minutes watching videos and reading articles, I can see two posts printed in a Telegraph article, one refers to "Jew Hunt" another refers to "Cancer Jews". Both of those posts are antisemitic.

I'd repeat a question asked of you by, I think, Os. Have you any idea what goes on at football grounds across Europe every weekend and at midweek games? It was vile sectarianism at Scottish games that swore me off football, my sporting first love.

Dutch fans have a reputation for violence, I don't know if it's better or worse now than it was, but across Europe clubs have their "Ultras" and "Headhunters" and other lovely sections of their fan bases. It used to be that thugs from clubs would organise a match up between rival fans, again I don't know if they still do this, but with the messaging apps it would be a lot easier to do it now.

Football is still rife with bigotry, there are still monkey chants at players, homophobic abuse, yes antisemitic abuse, any excuse really. It's better than it used to be, but it can still be a shit culture around the game.

Given you have experience of football and its arseholes I don't know why you are denying the antisemitic aspect upthread. Yes, hooligans will latch onto any excuse but the bigotry is real and it tends not to be just constrained to the football. In Scotland, it seems like the Old Firm rivalry is sustaining some really archaic bigotries whose time should have passed decades ago.

Ok, I'll concede that I didn't explain myself very well, I don't have a lot of time at the moment and I was looking for the texts that were being talked about whilst having a cup of tea.

I was trying to say something along the lines of what you have just said there,

hooligans will latch onto any excuse but the bigotry is real

I think that the hooliganism is there anyway and attaching an antisemitic label to it in this particular context, ie the Israeli government actions and what is happening in Gazza, ignores the reality of football violence.

If Arsenal fans fight Spurs fans, are the Arsenal fans all antisemitic? Or is it just the ones who chant antisemitic slurs? What if they don't chant anything and fight non-jewish Spurs fans? For reasons beyond my knowledge Brighton and Crystal Palace fans attack each other, Palace fans often use homophobic slurs, coz Brighton is full of gayz, innit? Is any attack on a Brighton fan a homophobic attack, or are they just fuckwits looking for a fight?

I suppose what I'm trying to say is again close to what you are saying in that there is a deep rooted culture of this violence in football, your rival losing is just as important, if not more, that your own team winning - you're not allowed to just support Rangers, you have to hate Celtic and vice versa.
For those outside of Scotland, this stuff is so deep rooted that domestic violence increases in Glasgow when these teams play each other, these aren't church-goers who take part in this.

My overall point is that some of these people will be sectarian, some will be homophobes, some will be antisemitic, but these aren't the sole reasons and making them so might be convenient in reinforcing one's point of view, but I think it's a simplistic, face-value mistake.

[Guy Smiley]

What did the actual Amsterdam poiice statement say?

just a couple of posts up above this, boet... just before you repeated the Israeli narrative

no, i just listenening to it, and since i understand dutch, its pretty much what i said, a flagged ripped of, another burned and the taxi incident

The Israeli narrative, we might say, is to completely downplay any part that Israel, the IDF, or Israeli citizens might play in any incident before swinging into playing the victim that must use self defense, regardless of location or borders.

You are doing exactly that here, you're a walking cliche.

[epwc]

Does he need a theme song?

[JM2K6]

I hope you're getting paid for this because if you're doing it for free you're really missing a trick

lol, you're such a bitch

Hey, keep it up - it's very funny. The digital volunteer wing of the IDF

[Calculon]

I heard the police statement, flag ripped down, burned, and taxi destroyed. Not sure it's actually that relevant to a "jew hunt" being organized by Moroccan dutch before these things even happened

The local residents had two days of it before the match. They then organised themselves to fight after the match. That is the timeline.

Not sure you know how any of this works, but it's often not spontaneous as Tichtheid has pointed out, it's organised group violence. Even a kid can see that, Bender pointed out in his commentary that there were leaders in the Maccabi hooligan group he saw. It's not just random violence between random people.

As you've pointed out the Dutch who decided to fight were checking passports after the match. There's been no reports of them going to synagogues or the homes of Amsterdam Jews. They have not continued into the days after the match.

We can call this a pogrom and like something from the holocaust if you like. An odd one, where you also think Ajax thugs attacking pro-Palestinian supporters is funny, but no matter. As I've made clear I don't think it was that, but it's also true if those terms are overused people like me will not pay any price at all, so it's easy for someone like me to just say whatever to avoid any hassle.

pro Palestinian locals and they bussed in people from outside for the "jew hunt" to be ready for when the jews arrived. i never called it a pogrom, the person you linked referred to a "pogrom against the pro Palestine demonstrator". they didn't continue because the police arrested many of them. Numerous reports of local Amsterdam jews feeling unsafe because of these pro Palestinian supporters

[Calculon]

I hope you're getting paid for this because if you're doing it for free you're really missing a trick

lol, you're such a bitch

Hey, keep it up - it's very funny. The digital volunteer wing of the IDF

oh god, it's like a second rate Sefton

[petej]

I've spent around 20 minutes watching videos and reading articles, I can see two posts printed in a Telegraph article, one refers to "Jew Hunt" another refers to "Cancer Jews". Both of those posts are antisemitic.

I'd repeat a question asked of you by, I think, Os. Have you any idea what goes on at football grounds across Europe every weekend and at midweek games? It was vile sectarianism at Scottish games that swore me off football, my sporting first love.

Dutch fans have a reputation for violence, I don't know if it's better or worse now than it was, but across Europe clubs have their "Ultras" and "Headhunters" and other lovely sections of their fan bases. It used to be that thugs from clubs would organise a match up between rival fans, again I don't know if they still do this, but with the messaging apps it would be a lot easier to do it now.

Football is still rife with bigotry, there are still monkey chants at players, homophobic abuse, yes antisemitic abuse, any excuse really. It's better than it used to be, but it can still be a shit culture around the game.

Given you have experience of football and its arseholes I don't know why you are denying the antisemitic aspect upthread. Yes, hooligans will latch onto any excuse but the bigotry is real and it tends not to be just constrained to the football. In Scotland, it seems like the Old Firm rivalry is sustaining some really archaic bigotries whose time should have passed decades ago.

Ok, I'll concede that I didn't explain myself very well, I don't have a lot of time at the moment and I was looking for the texts that were being talked about whilst having a cup of tea.

I was trying to say something along the lines of what you have just said there,

hooligans will latch onto any excuse but the bigotry is real

I think that the hooliganism is there anyway and attaching an antisemitic label to it in this particular context, ie the Israeli government actions and what is happening in Gazza, ignores the reality of football violence.

If Arsenal fans fight Spurs fans, are the Arsenal fans all antisemitic? Or is it just the ones who chant antisemitic slurs? What if they don't chant anything and fight non-jewish Spurs fans? For reasons beyond my knowledge Brighton and Crystal Palace fans attack each other, Palace fans often use homophobic slurs, coz Brighton is full of gayz, innit? Is any attack on a Brighton fan a homophobic attack, or are they just fuckwits looking for a fight?

I suppose what I'm trying to say is again close to what you are saying in that there is a deep rooted culture of this violence in football, your rival losing is just as important, if not more, that your own team winning - you're not allowed to just support Rangers, you have to hate Celtic and vice versa.
For those outside of Scotland, this stuff is so deep rooted that domestic violence increases in Glasgow when these teams play each other, these aren't church-goers who take part in this.

My overall point is that some of these people will be sectarian, some will be homophobes, some will be antisemitic, but these aren't the sole reasons and making them so might be convenient in reinforcing one's point of view, but I think it's a simplistic, face-value mistake.

Good post. I can't remember who told me this but NI had exceptionally low ordinary crime rates as all the crimes were associated with sectarianism. For your standard criminal scumbags an existing conflict is a convenient excuse/justification/cause for their shitty behaviour. Identify the culprits and ban them from travelling and entry to games.

[_Os_]

I heard the police statement, flag ripped down, burned, and taxi destroyed. Not sure it's actually that relevant to a "jew hunt" being organized by Moroccan dutch before these things even happened

The local residents had two days of it before the match. They then organised themselves to fight after the match. That is the timeline.

Not sure you know how any of this works, but it's often not spontaneous as Tichtheid has pointed out, it's organised group violence. Even a kid can see that, Bender pointed out in his commentary that there were leaders in the Maccabi hooligan group he saw. It's not just random violence between random people.

As you've pointed out the Dutch who decided to fight were checking passports after the match. There's been no reports of them going to synagogues or the homes of Amsterdam Jews. They have not continued into the days after the match.

We can call this a pogrom and like something from the holocaust if you like. An odd one, where you also think Ajax thugs attacking pro-Palestinian supporters is funny, but no matter. As I've made clear I don't think it was that, but it's also true if those terms are overused people like me will not pay any price at all, so it's easy for someone like me to just say whatever to avoid any hassle.

pro Palestinian locals and they bussed in people from outside for the "jew hunt" to be ready for when the jews arrived. i never called it a pogrom, the person you linked referred to a "pogrom against the pro Palestine demonstrator". they didn't continue because the police arrested many of them. Numerous reports of local Amsterdam jews feeling unsafe because of these pro Palestinian supporters

Chief, I've already stated in the post you're replying to I'm happy to follow the lead of various politicians who immediately released statements saying it was a pogrom reminiscent of the holocaust. If it makes you happy I'll say the correct words anytime there's any incident with Israeli sports tourists (not hooligans). Then like the politicians who impressed you after the correct words have been said I'll forget about it.

It's a pogrom reminiscent of the holocaust. Happy?

[JM2K6]

lol, you're such a bitch

Hey, keep it up - it's very funny. The digital volunteer wing of the IDF

oh god, it's like a second rate Sefton

Just keep posting and never take a backwards step

[epwc]

Noted limp wristed softie Yoav Gallant: “There’s nothing left in Gaza to do. The major achievements have been achieved,”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/after-fir ... s-in-gaza/

[Guy Smiley]

[Calculon]

The local residents had two days of it before the match. They then organised themselves to fight after the match. That is the timeline.

Not sure you know how any of this works, but it's often not spontaneous as Tichtheid has pointed out, it's organised group violence. Even a kid can see that, Bender pointed out in his commentary that there were leaders in the Maccabi hooligan group he saw. It's not just random violence between random people.

As you've pointed out the Dutch who decided to fight were checking passports after the match. There's been no reports of them going to synagogues or the homes of Amsterdam Jews. They have not continued into the days after the match.

We can call this a pogrom and like something from the holocaust if you like. An odd one, where you also think Ajax thugs attacking pro-Palestinian supporters is funny, but no matter. As I've made clear I don't think it was that, but it's also true if those terms are overused people like me will not pay any price at all, so it's easy for someone like me to just say whatever to avoid any hassle.

pro Palestinian locals and they bussed in people from outside for the "jew hunt" to be ready for when the jews arrived. i never called it a pogrom, the person you linked referred to a "pogrom against the pro Palestine demonstrator". they didn't continue because the police arrested many of them. Numerous reports of local Amsterdam jews feeling unsafe because of these pro Palestinian supporters

Chief, I've already stated in the post you're replying to I'm happy to follow the lead of various politicians who immediately released statements saying it was a pogrom reminiscent of the holocaust. If it makes you happy I'll say the correct words anytime there's any incident with Israeli sports tourists (not hooligans). Then like the politicians who impressed you after the correct words have been said I'll forget about it.

It's a pogrom reminiscent of the holocaust. Happy?

Don't know wtf you're on about

[Calculon]

Hey, keep it up - it's very funny. The digital volunteer wing of the IDF

oh god, it's like a second rate Sefton

Just keep posting and never take a backwards step

Thanks jmk

[epwc]

"Mazyouna’s face was ‘ripped off’ when a rocket hit her home. Israel has refused to allow her evacuation"

https://www.theguardian.com/global-deve ... evacuation

I feel guilty posting this because it's clearly nowhere near as tragic as the issue with the football thugs in Amsterdam, but dunno, maybe those kids are human too?

[Calculon]

hmmmmm, so much for the protestors and the thousands of Arab American voters in Michigan that handed that state to Trump

https://x.com/elikowaz/status/1856417592027820409

[Calculon]

decent article in the bbc on what happened in amsterdam

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c30p1jmzjrzo

[Guy Smiley]

decent article in the bbc on what happened in amsterdam

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c30p1jmzjrzo

Or you could bypass the mass whitewash and reframing of events carried out by mainstream media outlets like the BBC and read what the photographer who captured the violence unfolding has to say about it...

newsflash, it will challenge your bias


https://zeteo.com/p/exclusive-media-spu ... am-attacks

When chaos erupted in Amsterdam between Maccabi Tel Aviv and Ajax fans, photographer Annet de Graaf watched the violence unfold across the city first-hand.

Her footage of Maccabi fans attacking a Dutch resident went viral, and was picked up by several media outlets, who then spun a different narrative that it was the Israelis being attacked.

Headlines poured in about antisemitic attacks in Amsterdam. But these stories largely overlooked on-camera, blatant, anti-Arab racism from Maccabi supporters.

In an exclusive interview, de Graaf tells Mehdi that outlets like CNN, BBC World News, and the New York Times “told the opposite of what happened in that footage.” She adds that they erased the responsibility of the Maccabi fans behind the attacks because “the truth is inconvenient.”

[Calculon]

maybe read it before you condem it as part of a cover up by the BBC and the rest of the MSM to paint Muslims in a bad light - or whatever other reason you think there is a mass whitewash and reframing of events by the likes of the BBC

[Guy Smiley]

maybe read it before you condem it as part of a cover up by the BBC and the rest of the MSM to paint Muslims in a bad light - or whatever other reason you think there is a mass whitewash and reframing of events by the likes of the BBC

I read it.

Your continued cliche dance is sadly amusing.

[Uncle fester]

Beirut is being levelled.



Edit: should have looked at the date.

[epwc]

But, self defence...

I'm sure they did it in an entirely humane way to ensure no loss of life

[robmatic]

Beirut is being levelled.

This is the aftermath of the Beirut port explosion in 2020. What does that have to do with Israel?

[epwc]

This is a BBC article on the destruction in Southern Lebanon:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgx3zjvjg3o

At this point it matters very little how much of what they are destroying, it's just the fact that they're doing whatever the fuck they want.

[Guy Smiley]

maybe read it before you condem it as part of a cover up by the BBC and the rest of the MSM to paint Muslims in a bad light - or whatever other reason you think there is a mass whitewash and reframing of events by the likes of the BBC

You could do yourself a favour and practise some easy intellectual rigour here...

[epwc]

Truly awful stats on agricultural land, destruction of orchards is not a new tactic but fuck me they've really gone to town here:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... rmland-hit

[epwc]

ICC issues arrest warrants, means bugger all I guess:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly2exvx944o

[Slick]

Truly awful stats on agricultural land, destruction of orchards is not a new tactic but fuck me they've really gone to town here:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... rmland-hit

Just been reading about this, it's absolutely horrific. It's horrific enough that humans can up with the idea without actually putting into practice.

[epwc]

The US “fundamentally rejects” a decision by the international criminal court (ICC) to issue arrest warrants for the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and the country’s former defence minister Yoav Gallant, the White House said.

A statement from a US national security council spokesperson reads:

We remain deeply concerned by the Prosecutor’s rush to seek arrest warrants and the troubling process errors that led to this decision. The United States has been clear that the ICC does not have jurisdiction over this matter.

The US – which is not an ICC member – has previously welcomed ICC war crimes warrants against Vladimir Putin and other Russian officials for atrocities committed in Ukraine. Washington has previously denounced the court’s pursuit of Netanyahu and Gallant, a mixed stance which has exposed the Biden administration to accusations of double standards from many UN members, particularly from the global south.

[Uncle fester]

Not exactly a picnic for Palestinians in Israel itself.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... dApp_Other

[Calculon]

Beirut is being levelled.

This is the aftermath of the Beirut port explosion in 2020. What does that have to do with Israel?

Which was ironically caused by Hezbollah

[Uncle fester]

Bit tenuous there Calc.

8 storey building demolished with a bunker buster at 2am. No word on who the actual target was but definitely civilians killed in this.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy8ne9757jdo
And yes, I checked the date this time.

[Sandstorm]

Israel this morning: “We want a ceasefire with Hezbollah”
Israel this afternoon: Conduct 20 + air strikes on central Beirut
Israel this evening: “We have issued a 60 day ceasefire with Hezbollah “

Bunch of cnuts

[epwc]

Do you reckon the IDF have got shares in construction companies? Gonna be a fuck load of reconstruction to do

[Kiwias]

Just in case you were wondering, we can thank Trump for the Israel/Hezbollah ceasefire.

“Everyone is coming to the table because of President Trump,” Florida Rep. Mike Waltz, Trump’s choice for his national security adviser, said in a post on X on Tuesday, shortly before the Israel Cabinet signed off on the agreement. “His resounding victory sent a clear message to the rest of the world that chaos won’t be tolerated. I’m glad to see concrete steps towards deescalation in the Middle East.”

https://apnews.com/article/biden-trump- ... c996a2225f

[epwc]

Another pussy whinging about ethnic cleansing:

Moshe Ya’alon, who served for three decades in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), including in the elite Sayeret Matkal commando unit, and as the military’s chief of staff, also said that he believed Israel was losing its identity as a liberal democracy and becoming a “corrupt and leprous fascist Messianic state.”

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/12/02/midd ... index.html

[epwc]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yx56ep165o

His personal turning point came with an order he could not obey.

“They told us to burn down a house, and I went to my commander and asked him: ‘Why are we doing that?’ And the answers he gave me were just not good enough. I wasn't willing to burn down a house without reasons that make sense, without knowing that this serves a certain military purpose, or any type of purpose. So I said no and left.”

[Calculon]

From Twatter

October 6, 2023, Iranian proxies were arrayed noose-like around Israel. And Iran was on the front foot.

-Hamas had some 30,000 fighters, thousands of rockets, hundreds of miles of tunnels and bunkers, had turned the entirety of Gaza into a war staging area, and had the full support of the massive UNRWA apparatus. Hamas leadership was very seasoned and well entrenched in Gaza and Qatar.

-Hezbollah had tens of thousands of fighters, some 150,000 rockets and missiles, cross-border tunnels, and had turned all of Southern Lebanon into a war staging area. Its leadership too was very seasoned and well entrenched in Beirut and elsewhere.

-Assad was firmly in control over all of Syria's key cities and supply lines to Beirut, with staunch support of Iran, Hezbollah and Russia. He sat comfortably in his Damascus palace after some 12 years of civil war, the seeming victor.

-Iran, with Raisi as president and Abdollahian as FM, was enjoying billions in sanctions relief, continuing to clandestinely progress the nuclear program, and showering regional proxies (as noted above), as well as the Houthis, Iraqi militias, etc. with cash, all with key senior IRGC leaders using Beirut / Damascus as a playground.

Survey the landscape today.

-Gaza is in ruins, with Hamas' military power crushed, and virtually no ability to fire rockets or function as a cohesive force. Its Gazan leadership is mostly dead (Sinwar, Deif and dozens of others). Its Qatari leadership is either dead (Haniyeh) or facing expulsion. And the rot of UNRWA lays bare.

-Hezbollah's key strongholds of S. Lebanon, the Southern suburbs of Beirut, and the Bekaa Valley are largely destroyed. Nasrallah, his immediate successors, and virtually all senior leadership are dead. Countless midlevel commanders are dead or wounded. Prestige was irrevocably shattered by the pager attack, the decapitation of the entire Radwan force leadership in one operation, etc. And while damage was caused to Northern Israel, it was orders of magnitude less than what had been threatened. Remaining missile arrays and tunnel networks are but a remnant of what had been built over decades. Hezbollah's position in the country is increasingly tenuous, and its lines of supply are now existentially threatened.

-The Assad regime is on the brink of total collapse, with the Iranians already turning tail. Hezbollah may yet sacrifice more men on Syrian soil, but Syria as a key lynchpin of the Iranian axis is no more. Assad cowers either in Damascus protected by whatever "crack" forces he can yet muster under command of his brother Maher and loyal cadre of panicked fellow Alawites, or has already taken flight to Tehran.

-Raisi and Abdollhanian are dead (indeed, perhaps in just an unlucky accident). Iran now faces the unpleasant specter of Trump's second term, and no more sanctions relief. Its Russian patron is increasingly bogged down with its own problems, and Chinese friendship goes only so far. Direct Israeli strikes on the country caused critical damage to air defense arrays and some other important sites, and the "taboo" on Israel striking Iran directly has been broken. Iran was unable to cause any substantial direct damage to Israel. Hard to replace senior IRGC figures in Lebanon and Syria are dead. The prospect of an expanded Abraham Accords looms. Popular discontent grows.

Israel has more than its share of problems (beyond the scope of this modest post). And Iran's proxy war is not over. But for Iran, this all cannot be said to be anything other than a resounding and bitter defeat.

Haman will always hang on the gallows he prepared for Mordechai.

Although to be fair according to top analyst Ox the Israeli strikes on Hezbollah had practically no effect

[Uncle fester]

This propaganda piece was brought to you by persons affiliated with the IDF.

For starters
Israel wanted Assad to remain in power. Case of better the devil you know.

[_Os_]

Although to be fair according to top analyst Ox the Israeli strikes on Hezbollah had practically no effect

A lot of that is nonsense though isn't it.

1. Gaza is an utter disaster for Israel. Anyone that casually lists "Gaza is in ruins" like that's an achievement, probably shouldn't be taken seriously. A super majority of people in the West are not okay with mass war crimes on top of the already existing apartheid.

2. Hezbollah still has effective command and control, they couldn't have been doing what they were otherwise. Israel look to have knocked out the political leadership in Beirut inside the first two weeks. After that their target bank for airstrikes became churches, banks, residential blocks, hospitals, and pression drone strikes on ambulances. In other words as in Gaza, lots of propaganda about how good their precision capability is, then just turning everything to rubble and targeting civilians. Meanwhile on the ground as in Gaza they didn't seem to do much. Quite a lot of talk that their WIA from the border of Southern Lebanon is heavily under reported.

Hezbollah only exists because of the Israeli desire to invade Lebanon to steal land and inflict apartheid on yet another group of people. It is a beast of their own making.

3. I posted weeks back that Israel had started bombing Syria in a big way and was increasing defences on its border with Syria. In other words that something was happening. Israel supports Al Qaeda/Al Nusra/HTS, along with Turkey and the Western backed Gulf dictatorships. They think the Salafist head choppers will be better for them than the secular dictator guy. We've seen this movie before (have you read the Clean Break report Netanyahu co-authored in the 1990s yet?), the plan was regime change in Iraq and breaking Syria, which apparently would create a peaceful region that supports Israel. Alawites are in the majority along the coast which is mountainous, from what I can tell they still control that, Hezbollah was being supplied through there via the sea and air, not just over land. But obviously this development weakens Hezbollah which may mean Israel undoes it's half baked ceasefire in Lebanon.

4. There's very little evidence Israel's strike on Iran did anything. Almost no satellite imagery. A lot of the claims about it look straight made up. The determination to attack Iran is just crazy.

As usual all Israel's problems are political. Killing a load of people will not change much because it's not a military problem, their problem is they refuse to treat Palestinians as fully human and refuse to decide where their borders are. Totally crazy the leaders of many European countries support all this (against all polling), they must really want more refugee waves.

Lekker that you had another go after the head choppers got some wins though.

PS: Mayor of Amsterdam said she was wrong to call it a pogrom like something out of the holocaust and all the rest of the nonsense. She now says it's offensive to say that. As I said, in the end she would have to answer to her own electorate, and that isn't people in the Middle East.

[_Os_]

This propaganda piece was brought to you by persons affiliated with the IDF.

For starters
Israel wanted Assad to remain in power. Case of better the devil you know.

Maybe, but put it this way their airstrikes inside Syria are only on Syrian government forces not rebel groups.

It's known they were providing medical care for Al Qaeda/Al Nusra fighters in IDF military facilities in the Golan.
https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/repor ... war-393862

They probably also backed ISIS when it started. Again put it this way the people backing ISIS weren't those who always opposed it (Syrian government/Iran/Russia).

Israel now gets to see if the head choppers in Syria turn out better for them than they did in Iraq.