2024/2025 Not Heineken Cup

[Tichtheid]

I find this antipathy toward rugby very frustrating from a Scottish perspective - the football dwarfs everything else in terms of attendances, tv viewing and press coverage - Celtic and Rangers can compete with the top English teams in attendance, if not on the park. They get averages of nearly 60K for Celtic and upper 40s for Rangers - I suspect the averages of the other teams are bolstered by fans of these teams when they play away - they have fans across the country like no other teams.
This despite London alone having a much higher population than Scotland.

The reality is that Scotland are ranked 45th in the Fifa table, the World Rugby table has Scotland at sixth and I think we could do better than that.

Although many of our players have gone through the private school system, it's very often because they won rugby scholarships there from the state sector - these schools are still very strong in sports. The clubs have taken over much of school rugby here now.

Data is not easy to come by because often we are comparing apples with pears, but one of the most reliable sources I saw fairly recently has Scotland way below the other top 10/12 countries on player and club numbers.


Edit, coming back to Scotland was fairly sobering (not a sentence you'll see often) - my hometown club is being run by guys my age, there isn't anyone under the age of late 50s+ involved with keeping it going. The coaches are a bit younger and the players are all very young - the firsts (only team now) are all around 21-22, with our first batch of post-Covid players coming up from the school age next year we are hoping to get a seconds out.
We used to run first to thirds plus Colts (U19s) every week who all played in leagues, with an occasional social fourths.

Question. Borders is largely rural yes?
Is it middle class rural or working class rural?

Working class.

Scottish Borders has substantially lower per capita output, wages etc than the Scottish, EU or UK average. And the clubs are very much community based, lads from working class backgrounds playing for them. Very different social background to the Edinburgh clubs for example.

Aye, rugby there started when mill owners challenged each other, but it was the workers in the mills that played, then extending across the towns. Some of the farmers went to private schools, but you wouldnae call John Jeffrey posh


Same for the East Lothian clubs - it's joiners, plumbers and plasters that play mainly. Traditionally there were farmers and fishermen too, but there are fewer of them now.

[Biffer]

Question. Borders is largely rural yes?
Is it middle class rural or working class rural?

Working class.

Scottish Borders has substantially lower per capita output, wages etc than the Scottish, EU or UK average. And the clubs are very much community based, lads from working class backgrounds playing for them. Very different social background to the Edinburgh clubs for example.

Aye, rugby there started when mill owners challenged each other, but it was the workers in the mills that played, then extending across the towns. Some of the farmers went to private schools, but you wouldnae call John Jeffrey posh


Same for the East Lothian clubs - it's joiners, plumbers and plasters that play mainly. Traditionally there were farmers and fishermen too, but there are fewer of them now.

Not if you wanted to keep your teeth.

[Tichtheid]

There's also that "Ba" game int eh borders where hundreds of young men fight for a small leather ball in order to get it from one end of the town to the other

[Sandstorm]

You can't support a domestic league in the same way as France does, just as we can't.

No-one else can. France isn't like anyone else because they have Sugar Daddies who fund clubs like footie does. And they have huge numbers of foreign star players in each starting line-up, which also isn't cool.

[Biffer]

You can't support a domestic league in the same way as France does, just as we can't.

No-one else can. France isn't like anyone else because they have Sugar Daddies who fund clubs like footie does. And they have huge numbers of foreign star players in each starting line-up, which also isn't cool.

Kind of the point of my original post. We, like you, can only support a certain number of fully professional teams in top level leagues. We'd all like to expand that, but cross border competitions are the way to go. That model should be replicated in the areas we want to grow the game.

[Slick]

Maybe you need to grow the game in Scotland? Two Pros teams is lame, especially when half your players are imports.

It’s certainly true in both England and Scotland that there’s a lot to be done to better engage people who already quite like rugby in the club game, but ultimately these are football mad countries where as Torq says a lot of football fans have an active antipathy towards the sport (sometimes unfairly but sometimes we deserve it - anyone remember that guide to watching rugby a Wasps fan wrote for Cov City fans?). Sunday Night Rugby Live on TNT is never going to be drawing millions of viewers.

I find this antipathy toward rugby very frustrating from a Scottish perspective - the football dwarfs everything else in terms of attendances, tv viewing and press coverage - Celtic and Rangers can compete with the top English teams in attendance, if not on the park. They get averages of nearly 60K for Celtic and upper 40s for Rangers - I suspect the averages of the other teams are bolstered by fans of these teams when they play away - they have fans across the country like no other teams.
This despite London alone having a much higher population than Scotland.

The reality is that Scotland are ranked 45th in the Fifa table, the World Rugby table has Scotland at sixth and I think we could do better than that.

Although many of our players have gone through the private school system, it's very often because they won rugby scholarships there from the state sector - these schools are still very strong in sports. The clubs have taken over much of school rugby here now.

Data is not easy to come by because often we are comparing apples with pears, but one of the most reliable sources I saw fairly recently has Scotland way below the other top 10/12 countries on player and club numbers.


Edit, coming back to Scotland was fairly sobering (not a sentence you'll see often) - my hometown club is being run by guys my age, there isn't anyone under the age of late 50s+ involved with keeping it going. The coaches are a bit younger and the players are all very young - the firsts (only team now) are all around 21-22, with our first batch of post-Covid players coming up from the school age next year we are hoping to get a seconds out.
We used to run first to thirds plus Colts (U19s) every week who all played in leagues, with an occasional social fourths.

It’s incredibly frustrating, what other team sports are we regularly in the top 10 and can push pretty much everyone.

I don’t know enough about it but the SRU must take some blame I would think. Why is Finn not plastered across Glasgow, why was Glasgows win last year not on the side of every bus, why is our world rankings not more widely pushed, why are players not being interviewed on the news and these awful national talk show things. Particularly all this when we are playing great rugby.

[Sandstorm]

You can't support a domestic league in the same way as France does, just as we can't.

No-one else can. France isn't like anyone else because they have Sugar Daddies who fund clubs like footie does. And they have huge numbers of foreign star players in each starting line-up, which also isn't cool.

Kind of the point of my original post. We, like you, can only support a certain number of fully professional teams in top level leagues. We'd all like to expand that, but cross border competitions are the way to go. That model should be replicated in the areas we want to grow the game.

Fuck. I think we're on the same page and friends again.

[Biffer]

No-one else can. France isn't like anyone else because they have Sugar Daddies who fund clubs like footie does. And they have huge numbers of foreign star players in each starting line-up, which also isn't cool.

Kind of the point of my original post. We, like you, can only support a certain number of fully professional teams in top level leagues. We'd all like to expand that, but cross border competitions are the way to go. That model should be replicated in the areas we want to grow the game.

Fuck. I think we're on the same page and friends again.

Bugger. Does that mean I need to unblock Oos and start arguing with him again?

[Tichtheid]

I don’t know enough about it but the SRU must take some blame I would think. Why is Finn not plastered across Glasgow, why was Glasgows win last year not on the side of every bus, why is our world rankings not more widely pushed, why are players not being interviewed on the news and these awful national talk show things. Particularly all this when we are playing great rugby.

Some of the handling Glasgow produced in challenging conditions on Friday was the best I've ever seen, I'm not kidding. The pace and accuracy of it was astonishing.

Finn, Huwipuilotu and Kinghorn are all in terrific form. Duhan always steps it up for Scotland, Darcy is Darcy. The bench is going to be strong with Jordan, Horne and Steyn really pushing for a starting jersey

This is our year!

[Sandstorm]

Bugger. Does that mean I need to unblock Oos and start arguing with him again?

Don't do anything drastic!

[Biffer]

I don’t know enough about it but the SRU must take some blame I would think. Why is Finn not plastered across Glasgow, why was Glasgows win last year not on the side of every bus, why is our world rankings not more widely pushed, why are players not being interviewed on the news and these awful national talk show things. Particularly all this when we are playing great rugby.

Some of the handling Glasgow produced in challenging conditions on Friday was the best I've ever seen, I'm not kidding. The pace and accuracy of it was astonishing.

Finn, Huwipuilotu and Kinghorn are all in terrific form. Duhan always steps it up for Scotland, Darcy is Darcy. The bench is going to be strong with Jordan, Horne and Steyn really pushing for a starting jersey

This is our year!

One of the reasons our players aren't plastered all over the shop is it's fucking expensive, and we already sell all the International tickets, so what's the benefit? (Yes, I can see the 'growing exposure' argument but in terms of immediate financial problems it's hard to justify that spend).

[OomStruisbaai]

If you want to grow rugby, you need to start with your bottom structure.

[Slick]

If you want to grow rugby, you need to start with your bottom structure.

Carry On Oom

[Slick]

I don’t know enough about it but the SRU must take some blame I would think. Why is Finn not plastered across Glasgow, why was Glasgows win last year not on the side of every bus, why is our world rankings not more widely pushed, why are players not being interviewed on the news and these awful national talk show things. Particularly all this when we are playing great rugby.

Some of the handling Glasgow produced in challenging conditions on Friday was the best I've ever seen, I'm not kidding. The pace and accuracy of it was astonishing.

Finn, Huwipuilotu and Kinghorn are all in terrific form. Duhan always steps it up for Scotland, Darcy is Darcy. The bench is going to be strong with Jordan, Horne and Steyn really pushing for a starting jersey

This is our year!

One of the reasons our players aren't plastered all over the shop is it's fucking expensive, and we already sell all the International tickets, so what's the benefit? (Yes, I can see the 'growing exposure' argument but in terms of immediate financial problems it's hard to justify that spend).

It's not that expensive in Scotland is it?

[Paddington Bear]

If you want to grow rugby, you need to start with your bottom structure.

What age do we need to be starting the kids on steroids?

[Biffer]

Some of the handling Glasgow produced in challenging conditions on Friday was the best I've ever seen, I'm not kidding. The pace and accuracy of it was astonishing.

Finn, Huwipuilotu and Kinghorn are all in terrific form. Duhan always steps it up for Scotland, Darcy is Darcy. The bench is going to be strong with Jordan, Horne and Steyn really pushing for a starting jersey

This is our year!

One of the reasons our players aren't plastered all over the shop is it's fucking expensive, and we already sell all the International tickets, so what's the benefit? (Yes, I can see the 'growing exposure' argument but in terms of immediate financial problems it's hard to justify that spend).

It's not that expensive in Scotland is it?

A mate of mine who used to work on the commercial side at Murrayfield said they'd looked to work with Lothian buses and / or Edinburgh trams to get a semi-permanent 'next Edinburgh game...' type thing on a bus and he said it was a lot more than you would have thought.

[OomStruisbaai]

If you want to grow rugby, you need to start with your bottom structure.

What age do we need to be starting the kids on steroids?

Are you an Aussie?

[OomStruisbaai]

If you want to grow rugby, you need to start with your bottom structure.

Carry On Oom

Rugby is a culture. In South Africa everything start at age 7 in schools in grade 1. All our schools in the Western Cape/Boland have rugby as main winter sport. When that 7 year old decide to play rugby, you get his whole family supporting and attrack to rugby. as he grow older the support stay. Its all about attracking 7 year olds to the sport. Thats where the focus should be.

In the NH its probably the clubs. The youngest age group should be the focus to market the sport.

[Margin__Walker]

You're describing football for most of the UK. My 8 year old has grown up in a house where rugby's always been in the TV. It's football that he plays and is obsessed with though. They start school and that's all the other kids are talking about.

It's very difficult (and potentially futile) to try and push back against it. Rugby has a place, but mass appeal will always be and issue when it's competing with such a Behemoth.

[OomStruisbaai]

You're describing football for most of the UK. My 8 year old has grown up in a house where rugby's always been in the TV. It's football that he plays and is obsessed with though. They start school and that's all the other kids are talking about.

It's very difficult (and potentially futile) to try and push back against it. Rugby has a place, but mass appeal will always be and issue when it's competing with such a Behemoth.

Exactly. Rugby should target the schools. In SA soccer is the club root. I see this in Stellenbosch. Paul Roos started soccer a few years back. Nowadays Rupert is also involved and Stellenbosch FC has come from nowhere and play top league nowadays.

[vball]

From purely a state school basis, there was a teacher's strike in Scotland in I think mid 80's. It stopped most of the extra rugby training being done as the teachers did it in their own time and I think that started to show about 5 years later in the poor Scotland performances. The kids only got 1 hour of rugby per week and a game. Not sure what it is like now.
Then there is also the school/club item - you used to be able to play for the school on a Saturday morning and turn out for club in the afternoon. OK there is a lot about over training, playing too much, etc, etc .... but ti gave kids great experience - not me. I made school team but not a club for after lunch.

[Paddington Bear]

The chances of British state schools en masse taking up rugby are basically zero unfortunately. Leaving every other difficulty the concussion conversation makes it a non starter

[inactionman]

Worth noting that rugby requires a team for any meaningful participation

Most other sports can be played by two people (or even one),so doesn't need to be quite so organised. I picked up football and cricket playing in the back garden, but didn't start with rugby until secondary school.

[OomStruisbaai]

SARU do very good by allowing Namibia and Zimbabwe playing in our youth school tournaments. That mean a lot more then playing against them and put a 100 + against them. Nowadays many of their schools play in our Easter tournaments in all the different sports. SARU also run 7s a at school level. If our girls can go the same school structures it will change our ladies rugby the same way.

[OomStruisbaai]

Netball is the big winter sport for girls around here

[SaintK]

The chances of British state schools en masse taking up rugby are basically zero unfortunately. Leaving every other difficulty the concussion conversation makes it a non starter

Interestingly my son forwarded an e mail from my 10 year old granddaughter’s school over the weekend
It confirmed that the school were going to start limited contact rugby for all pupils from U 10 upwards. They already run after school touch rugby but this is a step in the right direction and should be commended
Not sure it will be for her as she is very tall for her age and not well coordinated though she has taken to netball

[OomStruisbaai]

Sharks touring squad:
Forwards: Ruan Dreyer, Ox Nche, Trevor Nyakane, Ntuthuko Mchunu, Hanro Jacobs, Bongi Mbonambi, Dylan Richardson, Ethan Bester, Jason Jenkins, Corne’ Rahl, Vincent Tshituka, Emmanuel Tshituka, Siya Kolisi, Phepsi Buthelezi, James Venter, Jeandre Labuschagne.

Backs: Grant Williams, Jaden Hendrikse, Bradley Davids, Siya Masuku, Francois Venter, Lukhanyo Am, Ethan Hooker, Yaw Penxe, Eduan Keyter, Jurenzo Julius, Hakeem Kunene, Litelihle Bester.

[Torquemada 1420]

I think England at least in part has had a similar thing happen as happened in Scotland. Up here, there used to be both posh boys rugby and working class rugby, the latter being concentrated in particular areas (mostly the Borders, but also in Fife and a few other spots). In the 70s/80s/90s a combination of school sports pitches being sold off and schools / clubs being stymied by massive liability insurance costs led to the failure of many working class rugby clubs, which means it's far more biased towards posh schools who can afford pitches, insurance and coaches now. I think something similar happened in England.

Sounds plausible. In the area I live, rugby basically wasn't played seriously at all in state schools. And this is spitting distance from Northampton.

[Torquemada 1420]

Maybe you need to grow the game in Scotland? Two Pros teams is lame, especially when half your players are imports.

Maybe you need to grow it in South Africa seeing as you're incapable of organising a decent level of pro competition without help from Europe.

Except I suspect that isn't true. I wonder if the absence of Soup and Europe would refocus SA on what worked before i.e. the Currie Cup.

[Torquemada 1420]

Super Rugby and URC are both cross border, not domestic. Currie Cup isn't top level (very few international players). You can't support a domestic league in the same way as France does, just as we can't.

This has to be erroneous. Killing Soup would surely have the effect of many of the top players going back into domestic rugby in both SA and NZ.

[Torquemada 1420]

If you want to grow rugby, you need to start with your bottom structure.

Is this an invite to Jake to speak?

[Torquemada 1420]

Worth noting that rugby requires a team for any meaningful participation

Most other sports can be played by two people (or even one),so doesn't need to be quite so organised. I picked up football and cricket playing in the back garden, but didn't start with rugby until secondary school.

And it's too ****ing complicated for anyone to understand as well as not keeping the same rules for more than a nanosecond.

[Paddington Bear]

Worth noting that rugby requires a team for any meaningful participation

Most other sports can be played by two people (or even one),so doesn't need to be quite so organised. I picked up football and cricket playing in the back garden, but didn't start with rugby until secondary school.

And it's too ****ing complicated for anyone to understand as well as not keeping the same rules for more than a nanosecond.

I actually disagree with this - the basic premise of rugby is straightforward and easy to get into. To enjoy the 6N you don’t need to know the intricacies of the scrum laws and the vast majority of people in rugby don’t. Compare it to cricket where the vast vast majority of us who play learned it from our Dads, picking up a bat at much the same point as learning to walk

[Slick]

SARU do very good by allowing Namibia and Zimbabwe playing in our youth school tournaments. That mean a lot more then playing against them and put a 100 + against them. Nowadays many of their schools play in our Easter tournaments in all the different sports. SARU also run 7s a at school level. If our girls can go the same school structures it will change our ladies rugby the same way.

Well organised poaching. Disgusting

[Biffer]

SARU do very good by allowing Namibia and Zimbabwe playing in our youth school tournaments. That mean a lot more then playing against them and put a 100 + against them. Nowadays many of their schools play in our Easter tournaments in all the different sports. SARU also run 7s a at school level. If our girls can go the same school structures it will change our ladies rugby the same way.

Well organised poaching. Disgusting

Blatant and disgraceful.

[TheNatalShark]

It's not poaching if they come from Walvis Baai

[Slick]

It's not poaching if they come from Walvis Baai

That obviously goes without saying.

[clydecloggie]

Did Beast come from Walvis Baai? I never knew.

<Runs for cover>

[OomStruisbaai]

Did Beast come from Walvis Baai? I never knew.

<Runs for cover>

no he is from Zimbabwe.

walvisbaai is Ox story about Percy Montgomery and he is right.

The best poach from Namibia is Jurenzo Julies. He scored against Toulouse coming from the bench. Excellent player. Blame that on Paul Roos, he went to Paul Roos. The Sharks poached him from the Stormers.

Lot of poaching this kid but a Springbok in the making.

[topofthemoon]

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