Bledisloe II: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sunday 18th Oct

[the cursed]

I can't believe most people are going on about the backs.. when the forwards lost the test match. Bullied up front, this team is reminding me of the Taine Randell era... NZ need to start intimidating opponents again, not be roughed up by the likes of England and Australia... start dominating rucks and winning collisions.... somewhere over the last 5 years NZ rugby has got too loose... and has forgotten to set a foundation up front first...

so much this... our tight five is the main cause of concern.. Plumtree has work to do.

[FujiKiwi]

Tuipolotu and Frizell were anonymous (apart from a trademark dropped ball from Paddy).

But it was so out of character with their Super form that it had to be that they were given idiotic, counterintuitive “roles” by Fozzie and were following his batshit game plan.

I think it all goes back to Foster, and I will be posting regularly on the FOSTER OUT thread over the full eight years of his tenure.

[Ted.]

What is Goodhue's best position? In my mind, he's a better 13 than 12... similar to a C. Smith type player... Laumape (any other 12's in squad) at 12.

He's a better centre, but he played bloody well for the Crusaders as a 12 this year. Ian Foster needs to decide what his best midfield is, and stick with it. It took Nonu and Smith years to become a great midfield pairing.

This, this, and this.

Sigh! He was exposed on defence at 12. Didn't do too badly on Sunday though. ALB is the better 12, Goodhue is better at centre.

I don't want to see Ioane anywhere near a start in the midfield this weekend, but I am willing to concede that he has all the attributes of a decent centre if he can learn to distribute on instinct rather than as a 2nd choice, i.e. stop being a greedy prick, sort his defence and stop fucking showboating. He has pace, a decent step, size and aggression, so that's a start.

[Carter's Choice]

I can't believe most people are going on about the backs.. when the forwards lost the test match. Bullied up front, this team is reminding me of the Taine Randell era... NZ need to start intimidating opponents again, not be roughed up by the likes of England and Australia... start dominating rucks and winning collisions.... somewhere over the last 5 years NZ rugby has got too loose... and has forgotten to set a foundation up front first...

so much this... our tight five is the main cause of concern.. Plumtree has work to do.

I have to disagree.

Our test five had the ascendancy at set piece time and held their own at the breakdown and clean out. What more do you want from your tight five?

Where the AB's fell down was their tactics. Constantly kicking the ball back to the Wallabies, with short kicks from Aaron Smith, allowed the Wallaby forwards to dominate territory and possession. Smith never allowed our forwards to hold onto the ball and gain some momentum, kicking or clearing the ball early in our phases. That's 100% down to our shit coach and his overrated, overpaid assistants.

[Ata Rangi]

I can't believe most people are going on about the backs.. when the forwards lost the test match. Bullied up front, this team is reminding me of the Taine Randell era... NZ need to start intimidating opponents again, not be roughed up by the likes of England and Australia... start dominating rucks and winning collisions.... somewhere over the last 5 years NZ rugby has got too loose... and has forgotten to set a foundation up front first...

so much this... our tight five is the main cause of concern.. Plumtree has work to do.

I have to disagree.

Our test five had the ascendancy at set piece time and held their own at the breakdown and clean out. What more do you want from your tight five?

Where the AB's fell down was their tactics. Constantly kicking the ball back to the Wallabies, with short kicks from Aaron Smith, allowed the Wallaby forwards to dominate territory and possession. Smith never allowed our forwards to hold onto the ball and gain some momentum, kicking or clearing the ball early in our phases. That's 100% down to our shit coach and his overrated, overpaid assistants.

For several seasons the team has been happy playing without the ball (even handing possession back as you just described) and has been winning consistent with less than an equal share of possession. Part of that was being ruthless taking opportunities with limited possession and also relying on the other teams fading. Neither of those things are happening as regularly now, opposition teams are maintaining their intensity for the duration and the All Blacks are less accurate in attack (both forced and unforced errors).

Fortunately they have a rugby visionary in charge, perfectly suited to the challenge of reimagining how to evolve and win.

[Grandpa]

so much this... our tight five is the main cause of concern.. Plumtree has work to do.

I have to disagree.

Our test five had the ascendancy at set piece time and held their own at the breakdown and clean out. What more do you want from your tight five?

Where the AB's fell down was their tactics. Constantly kicking the ball back to the Wallabies, with short kicks from Aaron Smith, allowed the Wallaby forwards to dominate territory and possession. Smith never allowed our forwards to hold onto the ball and gain some momentum, kicking or clearing the ball early in our phases. That's 100% down to our shit coach and his overrated, overpaid assistants.

For several seasons the team has been happy playing without the ball (even handing possession back as you just described) and has been winning consistent with less than an equal share of possession. Part of that was being ruthless taking opportunities with limited possession and also relying on the other teams fading. Neither of those things are happening as regularly now, opposition teams are maintaining their intensity for the duration and the All Blacks are less accurate in attack (both forced and unforced errors).

Fortunately they have a rugby visionary in charge, perfectly suited to the challenge of reimagining how to evolve and win.

Funny. I can't imagine Scott Robertson letting any team he coached be bullied. It's not so much personnel as attitude and coaching. I saw it in SR Aotearoa... NZ sides have stopped competing at rucks Often only 3 participants.. sometimes all three on the same team! Which is one of the reasons that losing SA sides will further harm NZ in that area.. unless Aussie teams follow Dave Rennie's lead and become more confrontational...

Cane was NZ's best forward on Saturday, but even he at times is too slow. Nick White kept running past NZ's loosies in ways Kaino and McCaw would never have allowed... but Cane wasn't being supported at the breakdown... It's great that NZ have such a positive offensive outlook, but you do need to have strong defensive foundations first. Hansen has let this drift since 2015. Can Foster and Plumtree bring it back? So far the jury is out... I want to see a rabid team on Saturday ripping the shirts off Aussies back and trampling them into the dirt... then whoever is in the backline will look like a star...

And why I think it is about attitude and coaching is that I have seen this team do it a few times... against Ireland in the world cup and against Ireland in 2017 after they lost in Chicago, that first half against Ireland in Dublin was almost over the top... but that's about where I want them to be.. intimidating.. with fast backs... week after week... not against Ireland one week and being complacent the next against England... It's a shame SA ether won't play or won't be competitive this year... they often bring the best out of NZ...

[Not_Couch]

Scott McLeod is the defence coach, he applies the non committed ruck formation you see. It heavily relies on opposition mistakes or frustration but it gives away territory and possession. That's why England killed us at the world cup, we haven't learned from our past mistakes.

[Gumboot]

Cane was NZ's best forward on Saturday, but even he at times is too slow. Nick White kept running past NZ's loosies in ways Kaino and McCaw would never have allowed... but Cane wasn't being supported at the breakdown... It's great that NZ have such a positive offensive outlook, but you do need to have strong defensive foundations first. Hansen has let this drift since 2015. Can Foster and Plumtree bring it back? So far the jury is out... I want to see a rabid team on Saturday ripping the shirts off Aussies back and trampling them into the dirt... then whoever is in the backline will look like a star...

And why I think it is about attitude and coaching is that I have seen this team do it a few times... against Ireland in the world cup and against Ireland in 2017 after they lost in Chicago, that first half against Ireland in Dublin was almost over the top... but that's about where I want them to be.. intimidating.. with fast backs... week after week... not against Ireland one week and being complacent the next against England... It's a shame SA ether won't play or won't be competitive this year... they often bring the best out of NZ...

What changes would you make for the next test?

[Monkey Magic]

Scott McLeod is the defence coach, he applies the non committed ruck formation you see. It heavily relies on opposition mistakes or frustration but it gives away territory and possession. That's why England killed us at the world cup, we haven't learned from our past mistakes.

One of the issues was that despite the lack of competition at the breakdown, we were missing a lot of tackles and going backwards in contact.

Either smash the ruck and slow the ball down, or fan out and smash the ball carriers. On the weekend they did neither of these things and then struggled to build their own phase play when we had the ball

[Carter's Choice]

This issue was not selection - I think Foster selected a strong XXIII, and certainly the pack was the one most of us would have selected. This issue was tactics, strategy and preparation.

[Grandpa]

Cane was NZ's best forward on Saturday, but even he at times is too slow. Nick White kept running past NZ's loosies in ways Kaino and McCaw would never have allowed... but Cane wasn't being supported at the breakdown... It's great that NZ have such a positive offensive outlook, but you do need to have strong defensive foundations first. Hansen has let this drift since 2015. Can Foster and Plumtree bring it back? So far the jury is out... I want to see a rabid team on Saturday ripping the shirts off Aussies back and trampling them into the dirt... then whoever is in the backline will look like a star...

And why I think it is about attitude and coaching is that I have seen this team do it a few times... against Ireland in the world cup and against Ireland in 2017 after they lost in Chicago, that first half against Ireland in Dublin was almost over the top... but that's about where I want them to be.. intimidating.. with fast backs... week after week... not against Ireland one week and being complacent the next against England... It's a shame SA ether won't play or won't be competitive this year... they often bring the best out of NZ...

What changes would you make for the next test?

Changes to personnel? Hardly any as I think this is an attitude issue as well as a coaching issue... though I would bring Caleb Clarke in on the wing. I'm not convinced Frizzell has the mongrel we need in the pack either... but who in his place? Dalton Papalii maybe... Before this test i'd probably have gone, Ardie at 7, Papalii at 6 and Sotutu at 8... very green... but they are the future and we have four years... but Sam Cane was the only forward who punched above his weight last Saturday so can't really drop him... but whoever they pick, if coached properly should be able to do the job against anyone... it's not the players that are the problem...

[Gumboot]

This issue was not selection - I think Foster selected a strong XXIII, and certainly the pack was the one most of us would have selected. This issue was tactics, strategy and preparation.

So you wouldn't change the team at all, apart from bringing Beaudie back to start?

Can't see them bringing anyone new (from the current squad) into the match 23, but I think there could be a few changes in the starting XV.

[Gumboot]

Sigh! He was exposed on defence at 12. Didn't do too badly on Sunday though. ALB is the better 12, Goodhue is better at centre.

Yep, Goodhue's a much better test centre than 2nd 5.

[Dan54]

Sigh! He was exposed on defence at 12. Didn't do too badly on Sunday though. ALB is the better 12, Goodhue is better at centre.

Yep, Goodhue's a much better test centre than 2nd 5.

Yep I have always preferred ALB at 12 and Goodhue at 13 (though he not real quick )and Goodhue was bloody good at 12 at super this year , ,but I wondered if it was because that was there positions when I first saw both of them play. Definitely think we need a bit more speed on wing if we play Goodhue at 13.

[Dan54]

Tuipolotu and Frizell were anonymous (apart from a trademark dropped ball from Paddy).

But it was so out of character with their Super form that it had to be that they were given idiotic, counterintuitive “roles” by Fozzie and were following his batshit game plan.

I think it all goes back to Foster, and I will be posting regularly on the FOSTER OUT thread over the full eight years of his tenure.

I also wonder if it shows the difference between Super and test rugby? Maybe they found the Wallabies a bit more physical than what they got in Super?

[Thommo]

From an outsider's perspective, you'd have to bring ALB in and shift Goodhue to 13. BB to fullback is a given. Mackenzie is a liability. He can win matches but he can also lose them. Mo'unga played like a punch drunk puppy...you'd have to think he stays and is told to sort his head out. I also think Jordie Barrett is a bit of a nothing winger.

I couldn't see any issue with the forwards from a Wallaby perspective other than the combinations didn't look to be all there. The Wallaby forwards looked to be a more cohesive unit.

[Kiwias]

He's a better centre, but he played bloody well for the Crusaders as a 12 this year. Ian Foster needs to decide what his best midfield is, and stick with it. It took Nonu and Smith years to become a great midfield pairing.

This, this, and this.

Sigh! He was exposed on defence at 12. Didn't do too badly on Sunday though. ALB is the better 12, Goodhue is better at centre.

I don't want to see Ioane anywhere near a start in the midfield this weekend, but I am willing to concede that he has all the attributes of a decent centre if he can learn to distribute on instinct rather than as a 2nd choice, i.e. stop being a greedy prick, sort his defence and stop fucking showboating. He has pace, a decent step, size and aggression, so that's a start.

Not sure why you are sighing as we are actually saying the same thing.

[Carter's Choice]

It appears that Sam Whitelock and Beauden Barrett are both in doubt this weekend.

Whitelock would be a huge loss. Joshua Ioane has been called into the squad.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all ... econd-test

[Kiwias]

It appears that Sam Whitelock and Beauden Barrett are both in doubt this weekend.

Whitelock would be a huge loss. Joshua Ioane has been called into the squad.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all ... econd-test

Tuipulotu will need to raise his game significantly if Big Sam is out.

[Gumboot]

It appears that Sam Whitelock and Beauden Barrett are both in doubt this weekend.

Whitelock would be a huge loss. Joshua Ioane has been called into the squad.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all ... econd-test

Well that sucks.

[Gumboot]

Tuipulotu will need to raise his game significantly if Big Sam is out.

Damn straight, I watched the game again last night and he was ordinary. Was going to suggest dropping him to the bench and starting Vaa'i, who looked much more direct and industrious when he came on.

[mrbrownstone]

Sam Whitelock and Joe Moody are arguably our two most important players right now, as our depth at lock and loosehead is very poor.

With Retallick, Barrett, Strange, and Parkinson unavailable, losing a 100+ test lock to be replaced by newbies Tupou Vaa'i or Mitch Dunshea would be a disaster.

[Kiwias]

Sam Whitelock and Joe Moody are arguably our two most important players right now, as our depth at lock and loosehead is very poor.

With Retallick, Barrett, Strange, and Parkinson unavailable, losing a 100+ test lock to be replaced by newbies Tupou Vaa'i or Mitch Dunshea would be a disaster.

Whitelock is the man you see talking to the forwards through the game and losing our forward leader would be a huge loss.

[Enzedder]

Wow, the pitchforks are really out for Rieko now.

I’m more for giving him one more chance. If he takes this as a humbling learning experience, this could be the making of him.*

*As a useful squad member over the next five years, rather than all time great.

I'm unashamedly anti-Blues and anti-Reiko Ioane, but I think Foster should back himself and his players by picking the same team that he picked for Wellington, barring injury, and show faith in his setup and his systems. I'm sick of chopping and changing our team for no apparent reason. I've called for Foster to pick his best XXIII every week unless he's forced to drop players, and one draw against the Wallabies is not a reason to drop players.

This has my vote too - "You know what you did wrong, now go and fix it"

[Tussock]

While I agree with philosophy of not chopping & changing teams, the issue I have is that the gameplan before the match seemed to be use Jordies height and kick to him. I don't think this happened once.

Only changes I would make, would be move Jordie to fullback (if BB unavailable), bring in Clarke (possibly Reece) and McKenzie to bench.

[Kiwias]

While I agree with philosophy of not chopping & changing teams, the issue I have is that the gameplan before the match seemed to be use Jordies height and kick to him. I don't think this happened once.

Onky changes I would make, would be move Jordie to fullback (if BB unavailable), bring in Clarke (possibly Reece) and McKenzie to bench.

I'd have Jordan on the bench ahead of DMac.

[JPNZ]

TAB has the line slightly less than Bledisloe 1 with the Wallabies a 14.5 point head start. Absolutely insane odds IMO, NZ = $1.16 Aus = $4.85 Draw = $26 haha

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

TAB has the line slightly less than Bledisloe 1 with the Wallabies a 14.5 point head start. Absolutely insane odds IMO, NZ = $1.16 Aus = $4.85 Draw = $26 haha

Time to take some more dosh off the bookies.

[Ted.]

Sigh! He was exposed on defence at 12. Didn't do too badly on Sunday though. ALB is the better 12, Goodhue is better at centre.

Yep, Goodhue's a much better test centre than 2nd 5.

Yep I have always preferred ALB at 12 and Goodhue at 13 (though he not real quick )and Goodhue was bloody good at 12 at super this year , ,but I wondered if it was because that was there positions when I first saw both of them play. Definitely think we need a bit more speed on wing if we play Goodhue at 13.

Sigh! He was exposed on defence at 12, during Soup Rugby. Didn't do too badly on Sunday though. ALB is the better 12, Goodhue is better at centre.

That is to say, no he wasn't good, though was not total poo either. He was good when he played centre, but was often exposed when he played at 21nd 5.

[Ted.]

This, this, and this.

Sigh! He was exposed on defence at 12. Didn't do too badly on Sunday though. ALB is the better 12, Goodhue is better at centre.

I don't want to see Ioane anywhere near a start in the midfield this weekend, but I am willing to concede that he has all the attributes of a decent centre if he can learn to distribute on instinct rather than as a 2nd choice, i.e. stop being a greedy prick, sort his defence and stop fucking showboating. He has pace, a decent step, size and aggression, so that's a start.

Not sure why you are sighing as we are actually saying the same thing.

We are both saying he is a better centre, but I am saying he didn't play well at 12. Mind you, Fozzy obviously thinks he had been playing blinders at 12.

[mrbrownstone]

Goodhue is a good enough player to get away with playing 12, but he's wasted there IMO and is a significantly better centre.

[Ted.]

Tuipulotu will need to raise his game significantly if Big Sam is out.

Damn straight, I watched the game again last night and he was ordinary. Was going to suggest dropping him to the bench and starting Vaa'i, who looked much more direct and industrious when he came on.

TP had been playing the house down during AS, it's like he's hit a brick wall. Let's hope he lifts because without Lurch we need him to join with Sam Whitelock to put a full shift in.

As other's have been saying, the greatest change has to happen at the breakdown, both in effort and tactics. As an aside, so we swap the Frizell's tighter role around with Ardie's looser role, i.e. have Ardie mucking out with Sam Cane and Frizell in the wider channels, or galloping up,the middle?

[Kiwias]

Sigh! He was exposed on defence at 12. Didn't do too badly on Sunday though. ALB is the better 12, Goodhue is better at centre.

I don't want to see Ioane anywhere near a start in the midfield this weekend, but I am willing to concede that he has all the attributes of a decent centre if he can learn to distribute on instinct rather than as a 2nd choice, i.e. stop being a greedy prick, sort his defence and stop fucking showboating. He has pace, a decent step, size and aggression, so that's a start.

Not sure why you are sighing as we are actually saying the same thing.

We are both saying he is a better centre, but I am saying he didn't play well at 12. Mind you, Fozzy obviously thinks he had been playing blinders at 12.

He did not play that well on Sunday but I don't think he played badly.

[Ted.]

Not sure why you are sighing as we are actually saying the same thing.

We are both saying he is a better centre, but I am saying he didn't play well at 12. Mind you, Fozzy obviously thinks he had been playing blinders at 12.

He did not play that well on Sunday but I don't think he played badly.

I agree with both those points of view. However, we should be striving for better and believe we will do that with Goodhue in his true position rather than one he can operate at.

[Monkey Magic]

Interested to see how things go ruck time on Sunday. We've all mentioned the lack of impact the ab forwards seem to have, but think the wallabies will also be a bit pissed off.

They 2-3 great attacking moves squashed because they got pinged for sealing off/going off their feet. If they can keep accurate at this stage they'll be even more dangerous - of course Gardiner may not be as quick to blow it up either

[Carter's Choice]

Interested to see how things go ruck time on Sunday. We've all mentioned the lack of impact the ab forwards seem to have, but think the wallabies will also be a bit pissed off.

They 2-3 great attacking moves squashed because they got pinged for sealing off/going off their feet. If they can keep accurate at this stage they'll be even more dangerous - of course Gardiner may not be as quick to blow it up either

The AB's were very good at attacking the breakdown, winning more turnovers than they have for a long time, but were soft on the clean out because they had been obviously coached to commit as few numbers as possible to the ruck contest.

[Kiwias]

We are both saying he is a better centre, but I am saying he didn't play well at 12. Mind you, Fozzy obviously thinks he had been playing blinders at 12.

He did not play that well on Sunday but I don't think he played badly.

I agree with both those points of view. However, we should be striving for better and believe we will do that with Goodhue in his true position rather than one he can operate at.

You won't get me to argue against playing players in their best positions. Some people are saying ALB/Goodhue at 12/13 is too small, that being their argument for Ioane to be at 13, but right now Goodhue is a better 13 than Ioane.

[average joe]

If Perenara didn't act like a selfish prick by thinking he's a prop, Sotutu would not have needed to act as the 9 and botch the pass. If that last pass was executed well the AB's would have had the game in the bag.

[Thommo]

ALB/Goodhue too small?

Have you seen the size of the Wallaby centres?

[mrbrownstone]

ALB/Goodhue too small?

Have you seen the size of the Wallaby centres?

I think the argument is less that ALB/Goodhue is too small in isolation, and more that with two smaller loose forwards rather than a bigger, Sotutu type at 8 + midgets like Smith, Mo'unga, and DMac in the backs, and no recognised 'power' winger a la J Savea starting, the size had to come from somewhere.

Chuck Clarke onto the wing to add a bit of power like Koroibete, and ALB/Goodhue is fine.