The Official English Rugby Thread

[Paddington Bear]

I felt really pleased at half time - physically we were matching up, attack had a bit to it, one missed tackle Ireland’s only score. We deserved to lead and were in position to beat a rattled Ireland.

Not quite sure what Borthwick said at half time. We didn’t try and run the ball for 30 minutes, fell off tackles and once again the bench were negative value. A very good defensive stand was let down by missing straightforward tackles and a combination of unforced penalties and a couple of very odd decisions. Poor Murley, rabbit in the headlights on debut. When we did decide to go back to playing some rugby we scored twice in quick succession which raises a what if. Kicking game failed to get us out of trouble and our kick returns were on the whole very average.

Fundamentally this remains a side that is less than the sum of its parts. We can’t match France physically and that will make for a fairly distressing afternoon

[Raggs]

I know there was a bit of polish at the end, but I was expecting to lose, and we got a BP.

Steward did well in the air mostly, and got stepped. Zero surprises. We tried not to kick back to them too much, smart enough when they've got Lowe and his cannon.

Think some of the front row changes could have been made earlier.

Murley was frankly awful. Repeatedly let the ball bounce, looked poorly positioned etc, and that's before we get into his decision making on our try line. I've not watched much prem recently, but was he really the next best option? I remember a few seasons ago when I watched more, he struck me as a solid prem winger, but not really someone bashing on England's door (Josh Bassett type).

We clearly had Ireland concerned at the breakdown. Under Farrell and Schmidt they were exceptional at committing no more than 2 players to the ruck, and doing that quickly and effectively, in this game they had to commit a lot more, and more frequently, I think that shook their game quite a bit.

Again, we didn't seem to get the ball into the hands of our strike runners wider out very often. Would have liked to have seen Lawrence get the ball a bit more (not just as a smash ball up).

[JM2K6]

Murley deserved his chance because he is a great try scorer with serious pace and power; his weight of try scoring over the last 3-4 seasons and his excellent finishing ability made him extremely hard to ignore. The same attributes that saw Sleightholme picked, basically. He's never been great in the air and has never had a brilliant kicking game, but I don't think he's ever looked as lost as he did yesterday.

[Paddington Bear]

I can take dealing with an objectively poor English side better than this. Every loss last year and now yesterday there were points to a greater or lesser extent where we were on top and there was a viable route to victory. And every time there is a new way to contrive to get out of a promising situation and an implosion of what often starts out as quite a clear and clever gameplan.

There were points yesterday where we defended like Trojans, others where we got cut open like it was a training run. Baffling and infuriating in equal measure

[Kawazaki]

I can take dealing with an objectively poor English side better than this. Every loss last year and now yesterday there were points to a greater or lesser extent where we were on top and there was a viable route to victory. And every time there is a new way to contrive to get out of a promising situation and an implosion of what often starts out as quite a clear and clever gameplan.

There were points yesterday where we defended like Trojans, others where we got cut open like it was a training run. Baffling and infuriating in equal measure

The onfield leadership is very poor in the spine positions. I don't think Itoje is a long term captain either and the less said about Ellis Genge the better. Tom Curry should probably get a chance.

[Paddington Bear]

I can take dealing with an objectively poor English side better than this. Every loss last year and now yesterday there were points to a greater or lesser extent where we were on top and there was a viable route to victory. And every time there is a new way to contrive to get out of a promising situation and an implosion of what often starts out as quite a clear and clever gameplan.

There were points yesterday where we defended like Trojans, others where we got cut open like it was a training run. Baffling and infuriating in equal measure

The onfield leadership is very poor in the spine positions. I don't think Itoje is a long term captain either and the less said about Ellis Genge the better. Tom Curry should probably get a chance.

Can’t avoid that there is an enormous lack of on-field leadership. So many games where we’re in with a fighting chance, something goes wrong and then we meltdown utterly. Murrayfield last year we went from hassling Russell, on top physically and scoring a try straight off the training ground to someone of Ford’s experience lobbing a pass at Slade’s head and the side dropping the ball 30 times in an hour. Yesterday wasn’t quite on that level but the drop off in performance from 40-70 minutes was totally inexplicable

[JM2K6]

I'm not sure it's totally inexplicable. The pressure game plan still insists that we give the opposition a lot of ball, that we swarm them in defence and at ruck time, and make a lot of tackles. We willingly put far more pressure on our own fitness and energy reserves, despite not being obviously fitter than the opposition.

Itoje is having an excellent season and I don't hate the idea of a "follow me" on field captain, especially in an international squad that has spent the last decade or so being told what to do down to the finest detail. His post match interview was dreadful, mind!

[Paddington Bear]

I'm not sure it's totally inexplicable. The pressure game plan still insists that we give the opposition a lot of ball, that we swarm them in defence and at ruck time, and make a lot of tackles. We willingly put far more pressure on our own fitness and energy reserves, despite not being obviously fitter than the opposition.

Itoje is having an excellent season and I don't hate the idea of a "follow me" on field captain, especially in an international squad that has spent the last decade or so being told what to do down to the finest detail. His post match interview was dreadful, mind!

Not sure I agree with this - leaving aside Japan in most of our recent games we have finished very brightly, be it two good tries at the end yesterday, dominating but failing to score vs South Africa, two shots to win it vs NZ, Ireland last year. The side’s fitness seems fine to me, they just have a habit of major defensive lapses and handling errors that compound to knock us out the game

[JM2K6]

I'm not sure it's totally inexplicable. The pressure game plan still insists that we give the opposition a lot of ball, that we swarm them in defence and at ruck time, and make a lot of tackles. We willingly put far more pressure on our own fitness and energy reserves, despite not being obviously fitter than the opposition.

Itoje is having an excellent season and I don't hate the idea of a "follow me" on field captain, especially in an international squad that has spent the last decade or so being told what to do down to the finest detail. His post match interview was dreadful, mind!

Not sure I agree with this - leaving aside Japan in most of our recent games we have finished very brightly, be it two good tries at the end yesterday, dominating but failing to score vs South Africa, two shots to win it vs NZ, Ireland last year. The side’s fitness seems fine to me, they just have a habit of major defensive lapses and handling errors that compound to knock us out the game

That's after throwing the bench on, though. That 45-60 minute period had everyone thinking we were gassed, and not for the first time under Borthwick.

Ireland also made defensive errors and missed far more tackles than England, but importantly they weren't inviting pressure needlessly. For all England were clearly on top in the first half, they had noticeably less of the ball and had to do a mountain of work to get on top. I just don't think that's an approach that can work regularly for entire matches at this level, especially without set piece dominance.

The defence wasn't anywhere near as suicidal this time, which is great.

[el capitan]

I'm not sure we were even on top first half - good start to get the first score, then dropped the restart, and seemed to be under pressure for a lot of the rest of the half. Competing well yes, but soaking up a lot of pressure.

Ultimately I think we just had too much cumulative defence to do and eventually tired, plus Ireland sharpened up in attack a bit. They had opportunities first half they totally barbecued, and second go around made some stick.

As I said last night, really was the epitome of England under Borthwick. Lots of defence, some good some crap. Attack rather aimless. Brief glimpses of what could be, but really only play when we're forced to or like yesterday late on when the game is over and opposition winds down a bit.

[Hal Jordan]

I'm not sure it's totally inexplicable. The pressure game plan still insists that we give the opposition a lot of ball, that we swarm them in defence and at ruck time, and make a lot of tackles. We willingly put far more pressure on our own fitness and energy reserves, despite not being obviously fitter than the opposition.

Itoje is having an excellent season and I don't hate the idea of a "follow me" on field captain, especially in an international squad that has spent the last decade or so being told what to do down to the finest detail. His post match interview was dreadful, mind!

Reminded me of an England Captain Borhwick post match interview, full of "almost there" "learn from this" "just fell short" and other shit.

[Ovals]

I'm not sure we were even on top first half - good start to get the first score, then dropped the restart, and seemed to be under pressure for a lot of the rest of the half. Competing well yes, but soaking up a lot of pressure.

Ultimately I think we just had too much cumulative defence to do and eventually tired, plus Ireland sharpened up in attack a bit. They had opportunities first half they totally barbecued, and second go around made some stick.

As I said last night, really was the epitome of England under Borthwick. Lots of defence, some good some crap. Attack rather aimless. Brief glimpses of what could be, but really only play when we're forced to or like yesterday late on when the game is over and opposition winds down a bit.

We certainly invited pressure onto ourselves - we rarely went through multiple phases of possession without either kicking it away, for negligible territory gain, or giving away penalties - especially in the 2nd half. The hectic pace that we defend with, is bound to shag out our players and sooner or later we'll either get gassed or lose concentration - probably both. That 10 minute effort when Smith was binned, looked like it took a toll.

[inactionman]

@saintk, did you catch any of Bath Bedford?

Lovely offload by the lock with the beard for the loosehead to run it in for Bedfords second (sorry, don't know many names on the Bedford side), and they gave it a really good shot after going 4 :tries down. Worley in particularooked very lively

[SaintK]

@saintk, did you catch any of Bath Bedford?

Lovely offload by the lock with the beard for the loosehead to run it in for Bedfords second (sorry, don't know many names on the Bedford side), and they gave it a really good shot after going 4 :tries down. Worley in particularooked very lively

Yes, I did watch it. Not really up to speed with Bedford but they were pretty good value and gave Bath a bit of a scare particularly in the second half
Thouight the lock and loosehead were excellent as was their 7

[inactionman]

@saintk, did you catch any of Bath Bedford?

Lovely offload by the lock with the beard for the loosehead to run it in for Bedfords second (sorry, don't know many names on the Bedford side), and they gave it a really good shot after going 4 :tries down. Worley in particularooked very lively

Yes, I did watch it. Not really up to speed with Bedford but they were pretty good value and gave Bath a bit of a scare particularly in the second half
Thouight the lock and loosehead were excellent as was their 7

Sorry mate, had it in my head you were involved with Bedford

Bath definitely on the ropes for a bit early in the second half

[SaintK]

@saintk, did you catch any of Bath Bedford?

Lovely offload by the lock with the beard for the loosehead to run it in for Bedfords second (sorry, don't know many names on the Bedford side), and they gave it a really good shot after going 4 :tries down. Worley in particularooked very lively

Yes, I did watch it. Not really up to speed with Bedford but they were pretty good value and gave Bath a bit of a scare particularly in the second half
Thouight the lock and loosehead were excellent as was their 7

Sorry mate, had it in my head you were involved with Bedford

Bath definitely on the ropes for a bit early in the second half

No worries. I keep an eye on their teamsheet to see who is on loan from Saints. But that's about it!

[inactionman]

Yes, I did watch it. Not really up to speed with Bedford but they were pretty good value and gave Bath a bit of a scare particularly in the second half
Thouight the lock and loosehead were excellent as was their 7

Sorry mate, had it in my head you were involved with Bedford

Bath definitely on the ropes for a bit early in the second half

No worries. I keep an eye on their teamsheet to see who is on loan from Saints. But that's about it!

Cool - I was worried I'd dropped a bollock mixing Bedford up with Ampthill or something similarly dreadful!


Bath are signing Exeter's hooker Dan Frost (ex-Bath academy) for next season. It's been spoken about on the Bath forums for a while so not a great surprise.

I'll admit I'm not up to speed on his set piece, which is where - lineout in particular - Bath have had a few wobbles at crunch moments. Exeter as a team have looked poor so I' not sure how to take recent performances. He does look very dynamic in the loose.

[sockwithaticket]

Sorry mate, had it in my head you were involved with Bedford

Bath definitely on the ropes for a bit early in the second half

No worries. I keep an eye on their teamsheet to see who is on loan from Saints. But that's about it!

Cool - I was worried I'd dropped a bollock mixing Bedford up with Ampthill or something similarly dreadful!


Bath are signing Exeter's hooker Dan Frost (ex-Bath academy) for next season. It's been spoken about on the Bath forums for a while so not a great surprise.

I'll admit I'm not up to speed on his set piece, which is where - lineout in particular - Bath have had a few wobbles at crunch moments. Exeter as a team have looked poor so I' not sure how to take recent performances. He does look very dynamic in the loose.

I was always very impressed with Frosty at Wasps, he seemed like a ready made replacement for Tom Cruse while being a bit better in the loose.

[SaintK]

No worries. I keep an eye on their teamsheet to see who is on loan from Saints. But that's about it!

Cool - I was worried I'd dropped a bollock mixing Bedford up with Ampthill or something similarly dreadful!


Bath are signing Exeter's hooker Dan Frost (ex-Bath academy) for next season. It's been spoken about on the Bath forums for a while so not a great surprise.

I'll admit I'm not up to speed on his set piece, which is where - lineout in particular - Bath have had a few wobbles at crunch moments. Exeter as a team have looked poor so I' not sure how to take recent performances. He does look very dynamic in the loose.

I was always very impressed with Frosty at Wasps, he seemed like a ready made replacement for Tom Cruse while being a bit better in the loose.

Yes, he's a feisty character and will be an ideal long term replacement for Dunn. Darts can be a bit iffy ar times. Quite a few more "senior" players leaving Chiefs so could be another season of "rebuilding" for them

[ASMO]

Murley out of the squad (injured apparently), Lowzowski in as a replacement.

[Paddington Bear]

Feel sorry for Murley - he’s experienced some wild highs and lows even for test rugby. Not just the try in the positive column - he did well for Curry’s try as well. Sadly there’s a good chance he’ll always be followed around by Lowe bundling him up, a bit like Tait was.

Pleased for Loz - hopefully he’s there to do a bit more than hold tackle bags, he has a lot to offer this squad

[SaintK]

Murley out of the squad (injured apparently), Lowzowski in as a replacement.

I hope that means Sleightholme is fit
Feel sorry for Murley and like watching him play but he completely shat the bed twice on Saturday

[Kawazaki]

Murley out of the squad (injured apparently), Lowzowski in as a replacement.

That replacement choice suggests all kinds of things. None of them particularly planned.

[Raggs]

Loz looks like a good option for running a team against in training. Not a player who you're realistically planning on taking up a permanent starting slow. Not necessarily a bad thing, he's a flexible player.

[inactionman]

Murley out of the squad (injured apparently), Lowzowski in as a replacement.

I'm almost hoping that's just for injury.

Chucking a player into a tough international - Ireland away is no bed of roses - and then discarding them when they make mistakes is something I'd expect from Eddie.

Either you believe they're good enough, or you don't, and you should have enough evidence in the team and coaching sessions to make a call.

For what its worth, I don't think bringing someone straight into a side with a defensive system that is - to put it kindly - in flux is going to give great results.

[Lobby]

Murley out of the squad (injured apparently), Lowzowski in as a replacement.

I'm almost hoping that's just for injury.

Chucking a player into a tough international - Ireland away is no bed of roses - and then discarding them when they make mistakes is something I'd expect from Eddie.

Either you believe they're good enough, or you don't, and you should have enough evidence in the team and coaching sessions to make a call.

For what its worth, I don't think bringing someone straight into a side with a defensive system that is - to put it kindly - in flux is going to give great results.

It was reported yesterday that he had picked up a foot injury in the Ireland game and was doubtful for the France test. So it looks like it might be a genuine injury rather than just being dropped.

[inactionman]

Murley out of the squad (injured apparently), Lowzowski in as a replacement.

I'm almost hoping that's just for injury.

Chucking a player into a tough international - Ireland away is no bed of roses - and then discarding them when they make mistakes is something I'd expect from Eddie.

Either you believe they're good enough, or you don't, and you should have enough evidence in the team and coaching sessions to make a call.

For what its worth, I don't think bringing someone straight into a side with a defensive system that is - to put it kindly - in flux is going to give great results.

It was reported yesterday that he had picked up a foot injury in the Ireland game and was doubtful for the France test. So it looks like it might be a genuine injury rather than just being dropped.

Who'd be an England winger? Injury graveyard at the moment.

[JM2K6]

Can't have been self inflicted - judging by Saturday if he tried to kick the wall in frustration he'd have missed

[JM2K6]

Murley out of the squad (injured apparently), Lowzowski in as a replacement.

I hope that means Sleightholme is fit
Feel sorry for Murley and like watching him play but he completely shat the bed twice on Saturday

Twice is generous tbf

I'm still confused by Sleightholme being a bench option so often for Saints. There has to be something else going on there.

If he's not fully fit, then it has to go to Roebuck instead. He's great in the air and an excellent attacker in his own right.

[SaintK]

Murley out of the squad (injured apparently), Lowzowski in as a replacement.

I hope that means Sleightholme is fit
Feel sorry for Murley and like watching him play but he completely shat the bed twice on Saturday

Twice is generous tbf

I'm still confused by Sleightholme being a bench option so often for Saints. There has to be something else going on there.

If he's not fully fit, then it has to go to Roebuck instead. He's great in the air and an excellent attacker in his own right.

Yeah. I'd be happy enough with Roebuck. The rumours that Steward may be picked on the wing fill me with dread!
Sleightholme has 7 starts and 3 off the bench this season. Partly Saints rotating and partly a couple of niggling injuries.

[JM2K6]

I hope that means Sleightholme is fit
Feel sorry for Murley and like watching him play but he completely shat the bed twice on Saturday

Twice is generous tbf

I'm still confused by Sleightholme being a bench option so often for Saints. There has to be something else going on there.

If he's not fully fit, then it has to go to Roebuck instead. He's great in the air and an excellent attacker in his own right.

Yeah. I'd be happy enough with Roebuck. The rumours that Steward may be picked on the wing fill me with dread!
Sleightholme has 7 starts and 3 off the bench this season. Partly Saints rotating and partly a couple of niggling injuries.

Looking at it again I think I just noticed on the occasions he was being rotated or coming back from injury. 80%+ starts last season for example.

[Kawazaki]

The rumours that Steward may be picked on the wing fill me with dread!

I think it would be hilarious, especially if he's opposite Penaud. You'd genuinely laugh out loud.

I seriously think the best hope England have got is to pick as many of the Northampton backs as possible, at least they will tick the 'cohesive' box that Borthwick always moans about.

9. Mitchell
10. F. Smith
11. Sleightholme
12. Dingwall
13. Lawrence
14. Freeman
15. M. Smith or Daly

[Paddington Bear]

Daily Mail reporting Smith at 15 is a done deal. Were they the ones who were right or wrong last week?

[SaintK]

The rumours that Steward may be picked on the wing fill me with dread!

I think it would be hilarious, especially if he's opposite Penaud. You'd genuinely laugh out loud.

I seriously think the best hope England have got is to pick as many of the Northampton backs as possible, at least they will tick the 'cohesive' box that Borthwick always moans about.

9. Mitchell
10. F. Smith
11. Sleightholme
12. Dingwall
13. Lawrence
14. Freeman
15. M. Smith or Daly

And Sam Vesty as attack coach
Rumours around that both Smiths will start on Saturday

[sockwithaticket]

Penaud or Bielle-Bierray, it doesn't really matter. Both will round Steward like he's an arthritic pensioner.

M. Smith to fullback is a solution searching for a problem that in turn becomes it's own problem and needlessly so. There are limits to 'get your best players on the pitch' and we wouldn't be so desperate for a playmaker at fullback if we actually picked a better centre partnership (i.e. one without Slade).

How much longer 'til Borthwick's contract expires?

[Slick]

Daily Mail reporting Smith at 15 is a done deal. Were they the ones who were right or wrong last week?

And the Times. Deary me

[JM2K6]

Poor Joe Carpenter, eh.

[SaintK]

Poor Joe Carpenter, eh.

Indeed!

[SaintK]

Another Saffer scrum half to Bath
That'll be 3 on the books though I should imagine Schreuder will be his way soon with Carr-Smith breaking through

On Tuesday, the English Premiership club announced the signing of Bernard van der Linde from the Bulls.
The 24-year-old will move to The Rec later this year on a two-year deal.
Educated at Menlopark High School, Van der Linde played rugby at age-group level with the Bulls before signing for the franchise’s senior team where he’s been in the set-up for the last six years, featuring in the Currie Cup, United Rugby Championship, and Champions Cup.

https://rugby365.com/tournaments/prem ... ans-bath/

[inactionman]

An interesting article in the Torygraph about Smith at 15 -they're presenting some reasonable arguments as to why they think it's a good call.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... x-nations/

The link is free to me so assume it's not paywalled.

Interesting comments about the nature of France's kicking and from Fraser Dingwall about playing with Smith at 10.