The Official English Rugby Thread

[Yeeb]

Official Team

England starting XV: Marcus Smith; Tommy Freeman, Ollie Lawrence, Henry Slade, Ollie Sleightholme; Fin Smith, Alex Mitchell; Ellis Genge (v-capt), Luke Cowan-Dickie, Will Stuart, Maro Itoje (capt), George Martin, Tom Curry, Ben Earl, Tom Willis.

Replacements: Jamie George (v-capt), Fin Baxter, Joe Heyes, Ollie Chessum, Chandler Cunningham-South, Ben Curry, Harry Randall, Elliot Daly.

Had a chat with a non rugby fan last night in the pub re why England were a bit shit now - I answered him just saying well when we won in 2003 or even runners up a few times, the teams then if you had to pick a world XV you’d have most the names who you could at least argue a case for if not shoe ins like Wilkinson, Johnson etc.
Today it’s hard to pick more than a couple who would even cause consideration , Earl and perhaps itoje and that’s about it really.

[sockwithaticket]

Official Team

England starting XV: Marcus Smith; Tommy Freeman, Ollie Lawrence, Henry Slade, Ollie Sleightholme; Fin Smith, Alex Mitchell; Ellis Genge (v-capt), Luke Cowan-Dickie, Will Stuart, Maro Itoje (capt), George Martin, Tom Curry, Ben Earl, Tom Willis.

Replacements: Jamie George (v-capt), Fin Baxter, Joe Heyes, Ollie Chessum, Chandler Cunningham-South, Ben Curry, Harry Randall, Elliot Daly.

Graphic for those that like them

[sockwithaticket]

Since we're going for the Northampton 9-10 combo and have 2 other Saints in that backline, it does seem bizarre not to use this as an opportunity to look at Dingwall again. This team seems to be crying out for Hill's involvement. Him, Curry/Earl and Willis looks so balanced.

Still hate 6 - 2 splits.

On the BBC pod yesterday Chris Ashton was talking about going all in on experience to try and get a win, but where's the logic in that when some of the experienced players (Slade!) are the lacklustre performers. There's obviously a balance to be struck between form and experience or proven past ability, but sometimes the former does outweigh the latter.

[Hal Jordan]

Official Team

England starting XV: Marcus Smith; Tommy Freeman, Ollie Lawrence, Henry Slade, Ollie Sleightholme; Fin Smith, Alex Mitchell; Ellis Genge (v-capt), Luke Cowan-Dickie, Will Stuart, Maro Itoje (capt), George Martin, Tom Curry, Ben Earl, Tom Willis.

Replacements: Jamie George (v-capt), Fin Baxter, Joe Heyes, Ollie Chessum, Chandler Cunningham-South, Ben Curry, Harry Randall, Elliot Daly.

Had a chat with a non rugby fan last night in the pub re why England were a bit shit now - I answered him just saying well when we won in 2003 or even runners up a few times, the teams then if you had to pick a world XV you’d have most the names who you could at least argue a case for if not shoe ins like Wilkinson, Johnson etc.
Today it’s hard to pick more than a couple who would even cause consideration , Earl and perhaps itoje and that’s about it really.

England being a bit shit is almost pur natural state, interspersed with periods of ridiculous achievement.

[Punter15]

It's a better side than last week's team but it's not the best it could be. Should pick Dingwall at 12 with Lawrence outside, Slade needs to be exited. Is start Chessum at 6 and would have had Hill and Earl on the bench. MS at fullback not convinced at all but he's still miles better than Steward. The England front row X2 will get absolutely minced though unfortunately.

100% this.

[Tichtheid]

Ben Earl for a world XV?

I’ve no idea what world that would be, but it’s not this one.

I honestly doubt he’d make any of the other 6N teams or South Africa, New Zealand or Oz, let alone a composite plus any other outstanding backrowers from elsewhere

I really hope Itoje regains the form of a few years ago, the Lions will benefit from that.

[Paddington Bear]

Ben Earl for a world XV?

I’ve no idea what world that would be, but it’s not this one.

I honestly doubt he’d make any of the other 6N teams or South Africa, New Zealand or Oz, let alone a composite plus any other outstanding backrowers from elsewhere

I really hope Itoje regains the form of a few years ago, the Lions will benefit from that.

Who has suggested Earl for a World XV?

[Tichtheid]

Ben Earl for a world XV?

I’ve no idea what world that would be, but it’s not this one.

I honestly doubt he’d make any of the other 6N teams or South Africa, New Zealand or Oz, let alone a composite plus any other outstanding backrowers from elsewhere

I really hope Itoje regains the form of a few years ago, the Lions will benefit from that.

Who has suggested Earl for a World XV?

2.49pm today up there

[Paddington Bear]

Ben Earl for a world XV?

I’ve no idea what world that would be, but it’s not this one.

I honestly doubt he’d make any of the other 6N teams or South Africa, New Zealand or Oz, let alone a composite plus any other outstanding backrowers from elsewhere

I really hope Itoje regains the form of a few years ago, the Lions will benefit from that.

Who has suggested Earl for a World XV?

2.49pm today up there

I’ll admit to scanning this but Yeeb said ‘considered’. Not quite the same thing?

[Tichtheid]

Who has suggested Earl for a World XV?

2.49pm today up there

I’ll admit to scanning this but Yeeb said ‘considered’. Not quite the same thing?

Tomayto tomato.

I don’t see Earl as anywhere near a world XV. The main contenders in the back row at the moment are Boks, French, the odd Aussie and Kiwi, Irish and even, whisper it, Welsh.

Earl’s usp, his pace, was found wanting against Scotland last year.

Plus he’s a dick on the park, which may be colouring my judgment somewhat

[JM2K6]

Earl would be considered because for a while he was right up there as one of the best 8s in the world, and that period included the world cup. It's been all downhill from there though, but when you've proven yourself to be that good over a decent period of time your stay in the conversation for a while, I guess.

I prefer him as a 7 in general so hopefully this will spark him into action again. He was pretty hopeless last week. Excited to see what Willis can do.

[SaintK]

2.49pm today up there

I’ll admit to scanning this but Yeeb said ‘considered’. Not quite the same thing?

Tomayto tomato.

I don’t see Earl as anywhere near a world XV. The main contenders in the back row at the moment are Boks, French, the odd Aussie and Kiwi, Irish and even, whisper it, Welsh.

Earl’s usp, his pace, was found wanting against Scotland last year.

Plus he’s a dick on the park, which may be colouring my judgment somewhat

Looking at the teams selected by England, Scotland and Wales this weekend I can't see any one player that would be in "A World XV" Maybe a couple of Irish and French players would make the cut from the NH but that's about it.
All very subjective anyway

[SaintK]

Fissler reporting on Rugby Pass that Tigers are after Owen Farrell as Pollard will be off when his contract expires at the end of thiss season
Dan Kelly has also signed a 2 year contract with Munster

[Kawazaki]

Fissler reporting on Rugby Pass that Tigers are after Owen Farrell as Pollard will be off when his contract expires at the end of thiss season
Dan Kelly has also signed a 2 year contract with Munster

It would be good to see Farrell at Leicester just to see all the Leicester fans doing a 180 on their previous opinions of Farrell. Borthwick would also spontaneously ejaculate if he came back.

[Paddington Bear]

Fissler reporting on Rugby Pass that Tigers are after Owen Farrell as Pollard will be off when his contract expires at the end of thiss season
Dan Kelly has also signed a 2 year contract with Munster

You’d imagine Faz would fit in nicely at Leicester, more so than in Paris. Kelly I assume would be Irish qualified once he’s been out of international rigby for 3 years?

[Yeeb]

2.49pm today up there

I’ll admit to scanning this but Yeeb said ‘considered’. Not quite the same thing?

Tomayto tomato.

I don’t see Earl as anywhere near a world XV. The main contenders in the back row at the moment are Boks, French, the odd Aussie and Kiwi, Irish and even, whisper it, Welsh.

Earl’s usp, his pace, was found wanting against Scotland last year.

Plus he’s a dick on the park, which may be colouring my judgment somewhat

You seem overly harsh on Earl , and I did say ‘considered’ to differentiate from previous era shoe ins like Wilkinson or Johnson or Robinson, or utter chod like Steward or Slade who are the modern equivalent of Jamie noon for levels of worldbeatingness . It’s almost as if you didnt actually read my post …

[inactionman]

Fissler reporting on Rugby Pass that Tigers are after Owen Farrell as Pollard will be off when his contract expires at the end of thiss season
Dan Kelly has also signed a 2 year contract with Munster

What's verdict on Pollard? In the few games I've seen him he's looked OK- in the sense of making his passes and his kicking is good - but not exactly the sort of influence I'd expect a World Cup winning flyhalf to exert.

Kelly has really dropped off radar, is it just injury? I recall him having a few layoffs when his name was mentioned in England context a few seasons back, and it just never reappeared.

[sockwithaticket]

Not that I go out of my way to watch Leicester, but the few times I have seen Kelly lately he's looked like the injuries took a toll. Definitely not the player who was knocking on the door for England selection.

[Tichtheid]

I’ll admit to scanning this but Yeeb said ‘considered’. Not quite the same thing?

Tomayto tomato.

I don’t see Earl as anywhere near a world XV. The main contenders in the back row at the moment are Boks, French, the odd Aussie and Kiwi, Irish and even, whisper it, Welsh.

Earl’s usp, his pace, was found wanting against Scotland last year.

Plus he’s a dick on the park, which may be colouring my judgment somewhat

You seem overly harsh on Earl , and I did say ‘considered’ to differentiate from previous era shoe ins like Wilkinson or Johnson or Robinson, or utter chod like Steward or Slade who are the modern equivalent of Jamie noon for levels of worldbeatingness . It’s almost as if you didnt actually read my post …

Oh I read it. I just don't think he'd be up for consideration.
Earl's not even the best English back row player, he's playing in France.

I accept what Saint says, that this is all subjective, so no doubt other mileages will differ.

[SaintK]

Fissler reporting on Rugby Pass that Tigers are after Owen Farrell as Pollard will be off when his contract expires at the end of thiss season
Dan Kelly has also signed a 2 year contract with Munster

What's verdict on Pollard? In the few games I've seen him he's looked OK- in the sense of making his passes and his kicking is good - but not exactly the sort of influence I'd expect a World Cup winning flyhalf to exert.

Kelly has really dropped off radar, is it just injury? I recall him having a few layoffs when his name was mentioned in England context a few seasons back, and it just never reappeared.

It took Pollard a while to settle in but he’s a class act
Evidently there are a queue of Frnench SA and Japanese clubs wanting to sign him

Yes Kelly never really fulfilled his promise and has had his fair share of injuries. Not sure he’ll ever get capped by Ireland if that was his reason to sign for Ireland

[Hal Jordan]

I'm definitely not aboard the Earl hate train, he is a really good player, but I think is a better 7 than an 8. He got on a hot streak at 8, but he doesn't have the size for it long term if you're picking the Curries as well, he needs a big body with him.

His celebrations are fucking annoying though, screaming like you've just scored a try in injury time to win the World Cup when actually it's a knock on and you're down by 10 with 3 minutes left is a bit daft.

[Tichtheid]

His celebrations are fucking annoying though, screaming like you've just scored a try in injury time to win the World Cup when actually it's a knock on around the half way 20 minutes into the match.

Fixed it. That's why he isn't in my team, or part of the reason.

I actually think he's a good player.

Itoje's form seems to be inversely proportional to his own celebrations of opponents' mistakes too.

[Slick]

2.49pm today up there

I’ll admit to scanning this but Yeeb said ‘considered’. Not quite the same thing?

Tomayto tomato.

I don’t see Earl as anywhere near a world XV. The main contenders in the back row at the moment are Boks, French, the odd Aussie and Kiwi, Irish and even, whisper it, Welsh.

Earl’s usp, his pace, was found wanting against Scotland last year.

Plus he’s a dick on the park, which may be colouring my judgment somewhat

In the back row chat will be very interesting to see how Darge goes over the next couple of games. He has been feted in Scotland without really ever hitting the top notes with Scotland, but was superb last week.

[Tichtheid]

In the back row chat will be very interesting to see how Darge goes over the next couple of games. He has been feted in Scotland without really ever hitting the top notes with Scotland, but was superb last week.

He was exceptionally good against France in his first international season, but last week was his best Scotland performance since, imo. He's still very young, he needs to keep performing at last week's level and this match will be a proper test for him.

[JM2K6]

Tomayto tomato.

I don’t see Earl as anywhere near a world XV. The main contenders in the back row at the moment are Boks, French, the odd Aussie and Kiwi, Irish and even, whisper it, Welsh.

Earl’s usp, his pace, was found wanting against Scotland last year.

Plus he’s a dick on the park, which may be colouring my judgment somewhat

You seem overly harsh on Earl , and I did say ‘considered’ to differentiate from previous era shoe ins like Wilkinson or Johnson or Robinson, or utter chod like Steward or Slade who are the modern equivalent of Jamie noon for levels of worldbeatingness . It’s almost as if you didnt actually read my post …

Oh I read it. I just don't think he'd be up for consideration.
Earl's not even the best English back row player, he's playing in France.

I accept what Saint says, that this is all subjective, so no doubt other mileages will differ.

I love Jack Willis but it's fair to say that his dominance at club level hasn't quite been replicated at international level. He's looked pretty leaden footed at times and hasn't necessarily found the same joy at the breakdown. Would definitely rather have him available than not, of course.

[Paddington Bear]

You seem overly harsh on Earl , and I did say ‘considered’ to differentiate from previous era shoe ins like Wilkinson or Johnson or Robinson, or utter chod like Steward or Slade who are the modern equivalent of Jamie noon for levels of worldbeatingness . It’s almost as if you didnt actually read my post …

Oh I read it. I just don't think he'd be up for consideration.
Earl's not even the best English back row player, he's playing in France.

I accept what Saint says, that this is all subjective, so no doubt other mileages will differ.

I love Jack Willis but it's fair to say that his dominance at club level hasn't quite been replicated at international level. He's looked pretty leaden footed at times and hasn't necessarily found the same joy at the breakdown. Would definitely rather have him available than not, of course.

I’d look good slotting into that Toulouse side, and I fell over throwing a dummy in a touch match last week

[Brazil]

Worth remembering that Zack Mercer was player of the season in the Top 14, and he's hardly burnished his reputation since he came back...

The best English back row is on the bench this weekend, anyway.

[Hal Jordan]

This is why I never quite bought the Steffon Armitage hype. He looked a million bucks, but he was in a pack consisting of All Star internationals who were also fucking enormous and battered seven bells out of everyone, allowing him to show pony around the place.

It's also why Wilkinson fetched up there, a nice armchair ride to extend his career instead of being behind the Newcastle pack and being subjected to the opppsition's weekly attempted murder. (Charlie Hodgson moving to Sarries was a similar career preservation move). Plus the money wasn't exactly unwelcome.

[Tichtheid]

You seem overly harsh on Earl , and I did say ‘considered’ to differentiate from previous era shoe ins like Wilkinson or Johnson or Robinson, or utter chod like Steward or Slade who are the modern equivalent of Jamie noon for levels of worldbeatingness . It’s almost as if you didnt actually read my post …

Oh I read it. I just don't think he'd be up for consideration.
Earl's not even the best English back row player, he's playing in France.

I accept what Saint says, that this is all subjective, so no doubt other mileages will differ.

I love Jack Willis but it's fair to say that his dominance at club level hasn't quite been replicated at international level. He's looked pretty leaden footed at times and hasn't necessarily found the same joy at the breakdown. Would definitely rather have him available than not, of course.

Aye, that can happen sometimes when you play back down a level.

[fishfoodie]

Oh I read it. I just don't think he'd be up for consideration.
Earl's not even the best English back row player, he's playing in France.

I accept what Saint says, that this is all subjective, so no doubt other mileages will differ.

I love Jack Willis but it's fair to say that his dominance at club level hasn't quite been replicated at international level. He's looked pretty leaden footed at times and hasn't necessarily found the same joy at the breakdown. Would definitely rather have him available than not, of course.

I’d look good slotting into that Toulouse side, and I fell over throwing a dummy in a touch match last week

PB is Ben Youngs, & I claim my five Pounds !

[JM2K6]

Oh I read it. I just don't think he'd be up for consideration.
Earl's not even the best English back row player, he's playing in France.

I accept what Saint says, that this is all subjective, so no doubt other mileages will differ.

I love Jack Willis but it's fair to say that his dominance at club level hasn't quite been replicated at international level. He's looked pretty leaden footed at times and hasn't necessarily found the same joy at the breakdown. Would definitely rather have him available than not, of course.

Aye, that can happen sometimes when you play back down a level.

Funny, but he was playing for England before he went to France...

[Tichtheid]

I love Jack Willis but it's fair to say that his dominance at club level hasn't quite been replicated at international level. He's looked pretty leaden footed at times and hasn't necessarily found the same joy at the breakdown. Would definitely rather have him available than not, of course.

Aye, that can happen sometimes when you play back down a level.

Funny, but he was playing for England before he went to France...

To be serious for a minute, Blair Kinghorn has really improved since being with Toulouse, it's not that his ceiling is any higher, more that the consistency is there.

I wouldn't be surprised if Willis has similarly benefitted from his time with ST now.

[JM2K6]

Aye, that can happen sometimes when you play back down a level.

Funny, but he was playing for England before he went to France...

To be serious for a minute, Blair Kinghorn has really improved since being with Toulouse, it's not that his ceiling is any higher, more that the consistency is there.

I wouldn't be surprised if Willis has similarly benefitted from his time with ST now.

It's possible, but he made instant impact there when Wasps went bang.

[Tichtheid]

Funny, but he was playing for England before he went to France...

To be serious for a minute, Blair Kinghorn has really improved since being with Toulouse, it's not that his ceiling is any higher, more that the consistency is there.

I wouldn't be surprised if Willis has similarly benefitted from his time with ST now.

It's possible, but he made instant impact there when Wasps went bang.

What would be your analysis of that then?

I used to support Toulouse as my French team as I lived near them and they were easy to follow due to their style. I lost touch for a few years but was glad to watch them again when Kinghorn went over.

[JM2K6]

To be serious for a minute, Blair Kinghorn has really improved since being with Toulouse, it's not that his ceiling is any higher, more that the consistency is there.

I wouldn't be surprised if Willis has similarly benefitted from his time with ST now.

It's possible, but he made instant impact there when Wasps went bang.

What would be your analysis of that then?

I used to support Toulouse as my French team as I lived near them and they were easy to follow due to their style. I lost touch for a few years but was glad to watch them again when Kinghorn went over.

French rugby, for all its strengths, has plenty of examples of overseas players who are strong at the breakdown absolutely dunking on their teams at ruck time. Some of them join their league.

Unlike Steffan Armitage, Willis has huge work rate to go with the insane ball stealing, and he's a tank of a carrier too. French rugby values size and power to an extreme and he is tailor made to take them on while picking them clean at the breakdown.

Had he gone to a kiwi super rugby team I suspect he might have had a much tougher time.

[fishfoodie]

To be serious for a minute, Blair Kinghorn has really improved since being with Toulouse, it's not that his ceiling is any higher, more that the consistency is there.

I wouldn't be surprised if Willis has similarly benefitted from his time with ST now.

It's possible, but he made instant impact there when Wasps went bang.

What would be your analysis of that then?

I used to support Toulouse as my French team as I lived near them and they were easy to follow due to their style. I lost touch for a few years but was glad to watch them again when Kinghorn went over.

In a top line squad there are usually players who'll call out others they don't think are giving enough.

When Rocky Elsom joined Leinster he soon called out Heaslip who he didn't think was giving it 100%.

I can't imagine there's anywhere to hide in a squad like Toulouse, where there are players in every position ready to take your spot.

For Leinster there were years when players could hide out during games, & no one would notice, but the introduction of the SA sides has removed those easy win game weeks, so now sides don't get off weeks any more in the URC, while on the other side, in the Premiership, they've gone the other way; they used to have relegation & jeopardy in every game, but now it doesn't matter if they lose to Newcastle or Sale, so they can afford to rest players, but on the other hand if you're an ex-premiership player in the T14, you are cannon fodder, & they'll get every last minute out of you, because your just a mercenary as far as they're concerned.

[JM2K6]

Lmao not this shit again.

Guys, relegation never actually threatened 80% of the teams in any given season. It was almost always extremely obvious who the basement clubs were very early on. Please spare us the cod analysis.

[Paddington Bear]

Our hopeless uncompetitive system has just stuck a 17 point thrashing on the enlightened perfection that develops players across the Channel.

The French league has more money than the English, rugby is more popular in France than in England, and France has the ability to produce power players in a way we can’t. Power tells in club rugby especially and teams not designed to deal with it can get ground into dust, particularly later on.

There’s precious little evidence to support the suggestion that English players come back materially better for a stint in France, they lose their armchair ride and turn out to be much the same player they were before. I wonder how much of Kinghorn’s improvement is down to hitting form and stopping dicking around pretending to be a fly half?

France as a national team have somewhat fortuitously stumbled upon an era with multiple generational world class talents, and stick them alongside a massive pack. There’s nothing England or anyone else can do to produce a Dupont, there’s no system for that. Even with all of that they have one 6N title to show for it and bombed out in the quarters of a home world cup.

It isn’t so long ago France turned up at Twickenham and only Picamoles looked even vaguely conditioned for international rugby, because he was the one playing in England. These things are cyclical and England have exacerbated a poor ebb of a cycle by trashing their age grade system under Dean Ryan, keeping Eddie well beyond the point when it was obviously time to call it quits, the well known financial issues in the club game and over the last 9 months continually playing the world’s top 4. These won’t last forever and as we’re seeing there is a really quite special crop emerging from the age grades.

Explained to an exceptionally disgruntled Mrs PB on a walk through the hail back to Baker Street that this weather is excellent news in terms of giving a local welcome to the French side. Hopefully they don’t fancy it

[Tichtheid]

I think that’s a bit defensive PB. I suspect the France squad at the World Championships will be rather different.

Surely the best indicator for an international selector is club form? Willis has been playing very well, imo better than his rivals for the England shirt. He’s doing so in a side that would most likely beat the international teams outside the top ten and give a hell of a scare to many within it.

I prefer Scotland to play England without Jack Willis than with him. It’s an unavoidable circumstance that he can’t play and I understand the reasons, in the longer term view it’s better for England to keep their players in the Premiership.

[Paddington Bear]

I think that’s a bit defensive PB. I suspect the France squad at the World Championships will be rather different.

Surely the best indicator for an international selector is club form? Willis has been playing very well, imo better than his rivals for the England shirt. He’s doing so in a side that would most likely beat the international teams outside the top ten and give a hell of a scare to many within it.

I prefer Scotland to play England without Jack Willis than with him. It’s an unavoidable circumstance that he can’t play and I understand the reasons, in the longer term view it’s better for England to keep their players in the Premiership.

Whilst Toulouse are clearly a very talented side and Willis is a fine player, I think it’s very hard to say what they’d be like in a test match where for some players and systems things just don’t click for whatever reason. They’re used to bullying the teams they play in a way they wouldn’t be able to at a higher level.

As I say, clearly the move has worked for Kinghorn but the evidence trail of English players coming back so much better from France is very slim. Willis of course has played in a 6N for England from France and didn’t scream World XV

Nowell is perhaps a better example - I think we’d all agree he was miles off international level by the time he took the La Rochelle contract, he now looks like a world beater and I’m not convinced it’s to do with a massively improved personal performance level.

On your last point I totally agree - I’d love for an English club to stump up to get him back and put him in the frame, I also agree with the RFU that picking only from England is the right call