The Official English Rugby Thread

[inactionman]

I'm happy he had it in him - as did the squad - to keep going and actually have a very strong closing 15-20 minutes.

I take it as a positive. We can work on consistency later, especially now he's had his self-admitted rabbit in the headlights moment.

[SaintK]

Ok no normally a poster on this thread (Bristol and Scotland fan) but thought here was most appropriate place for this comment.

Stephen Jones’s(Sunday Times) consistent and highly personal attacks on Marcus Smith are, in my view, completely unacceptable and go against all of rugby’s values.

For many he became irrelevant as a journalist some time ago but the failure of the Sunday times editorial staff and the RFU’s media team to curb this behaviour is reprehensible.

There are entirely legitimate grounds to criticise his performance yesterday but yes Jones has a nasty personal vendetta against him as a person, I’m yet to understand what is objectionable about him tbh.

Mentally Smith wasn’t at the races yesterday, not sure it would have come up on tv but on around the 60 minute mark we had a penalty on the 10 metre line, clearly Maro was eyeing up 3 points before Marcus sprinted in insisting on the corner. Seemed to me he didn’t fancy the kick, which is deeply unusual for him as his place kicking is up there with the best. Suggests a number of things, not least that Borthwick mishandled selection.

Just read his ST piece today, ridiculously over the top with his criticism. He’s been doing it for years though, he has his favourites and will use any tactic to prove himself right. Odious individual.

I have to say though, Finn S came good in the last 15 mins but was very average for most of the game. As I said earlier, I really liked the look of him but it wasn’t the breakthrough performance some seem to be saying

I've just read it as well. Very mean spirited and personal. He just loves being a contrary twat, probably doesn't like the floppy hair and hitch-kicck!!
He's been writing for The Times since the mid 70's and it's about time he was put out to pasture and while they're at it they can also get rid of Barnes and Dallaglio as columnists
I would only have given M Smith a 6 rating at the very most and F Smith a 7 though I thought he played very well for the whole of the second half not just the last 10/15 minutes. Still, 2 good young fly halves fighting it out for the 10 shirt can't be a bad thing.

[JM2K6]

I haven't seen many players turn around a really poor first half on starting debut like that so 7 for Fin seems unfair. Marcus chewed off a lot of metres and had an okay first half but made far too many errors, even before you get to his off day with the boot. You'd be hard pressed to give more than 5/10.

Don't think him wanting to go for the corner - something he always wants to do - is a sign of him not fancying the kick, though! Also not sure Daly's wing cameo has much to do with anything - if Fin starts, Marcus is either 15 or bench as we're not going to play without a backup 10.


Aside from the Smiths, Earl looked happier at 7 but missed a huge amount of tackles, Curry was obviously huge at 6 and his brother had a big impact. England did not use Willis well at all, he was basically a tackle bot and carried much less often than you'd expect. He looked strong but his entire USP is massive weight of carrying, and hopefully England can bring him into the game more in future.

LCD was not good, George was a big upgrade. Baxter obviously did pretty great, Genge less so, but for once the scrums were a complete sideshow.

Slade is getting big props from the media but I only really remember his errors, missed tackles, and the lack of trust his teammates have in his ability on the drift. Lawrence was quiet but you gotta love that hand off and I think he will be one of the big beneficiaries of the Fin Era, because I think he's happier getting an outside arc rather than a short ball and Fin is more naturally a longer passer.

Freeman had some big errors in defence early on but he really started to make inroads with ball in hand, his try was brilliantly taken, and we finally saw what he can do when he gets involved (and why he's so effective as a 13, too). Sleightholme looked a bit out of sorts in attack and defence.

The big worry for me is that the result is excellent, the second half performance promising, but we needed what looks like divine intervention to not be 20 points down at half time. That was an extremely shaky first half and we looked genuinely incompetent across the board. If we play half as badly as that against Scotland, they'll be out of sight.

[Brazil]

I'm surprised that Jones hasn't had the Spanish archer before for his comments about kiwi poaching. He's been trying to be the Clarkson of rugby for a while, and is a dislikeable mean spirited cunt. His vendetta against quins is extremely unprofessional, and his incessant bullying of smith extremely unpleasant. Unfortunately he's "the voice of rugby", and the sort of person parotted by Barbour jacketed twats across the country, though from the BTL comments on the times it would appear people have cottoned on to just what a spoofer he really is.

[sockwithaticket]

Comments and clicks are engagement, engagement is currency.

If people stopped reading his bilge they might sack him.

[Oxbow]

Re: Sleightholme, he didn't have a great game but he's been out injured since December and that was his first game back. Hopefully he'll be more up to speed against against Scotland.

[JM2K6]

Re: Sleightholme, he didn't have a great game but he's been out injured since December and that was his first game back. Hopefully he'll be more up to speed against against Scotland.

Yeah. I do want Roebuck to get a proper chance, though. I guess he'll just have to be patient.

The 6/2 bench really limits us and we can't really live without it at the moment. I'm really pleased that the bench did a great job but I was half hoping for us to be forced into a Ted Hill pick as someone who could cover multiple positions and be a real lineout threat. 6/2 also makes it harder to not pick Marcus at 15, and we'd all rather see a proper 15 like Carpenter or Hendy given a real opportunity with Marcus on the bench as the backup 10 or late game cover for 15. The Murley Meltdown really exposed the lack of flexibility.

Slade seems nailed on for the foreseeable, which is hugely frustrating, as we absolutely need to be looking at alternatives like Loz or Atkinson in a live match.

[Slick]

I'll tell you an England player who is getting on my radar - for all the wrong reasons - Ollie Lawrence. He's a media darling and forum favourite but his workrate is actually quite poor, particularly in defence.

Eh? He’s been the pick of the last 2 games for me - or at least very close

[Paddington Bear]

Re: France and divine intervention- appreciate this is an accusation levelled against past England sides but I thought their level of complacency and attitude to the game was absolutely pathetic, and for that sake I’d have been delighted if anyone and not just us had beaten them. An underachieving set of chokers with precious little to show for a golden generation. I hope I’ll snap out of it but I’ll go as far as to say I hope they lose badly in Dublin

[JM2K6]

Re: France and divine intervention- appreciate this is an accusation levelled against past England sides but I thought their level of complacency and attitude to the game was absolutely pathetic, and for that sake I’d have been delighted if anyone and not just us had beaten them. An underachieving set of chokers with precious little to show for a golden generation. I hope I’ll snap out of it but I’ll go as far as to say I hope they lose badly in Dublin

I'm with you on that. They embarrassed themselves and everyone who generally wants to see them do well because of their talent and potential. Just dogshit mentality.

[JM2K6]

Mitchell is the one I'm generally worried by this 6N so far. He's by far our best option but he's repeatedly gone the wrong way, been slow to get the ball out at critical moments, and has had opportunities for breaks that he's been too slow to take. Is he fully fit? His kicking game remains strong, and he'll always miss tackles, but there's something going on with him at the moment and I hope it's temporary.

Edit: that sounds harsh but basically it's because I think he can be a properly top class international 9, not a middling one, and I want him to be a real point of strength for us. He's missed 11 tackles in 2 matches though!

[Brazil]

Mitchell is the one I'm generally worried by this 6N so far. He's by far our best option but he's repeatedly gone the wrong way, been slow to get the ball out at critical moments, and has had opportunities for breaks that he's been too slow to take. Is he fully fit? His kicking game remains strong, and he'll always miss tackles, but there's something going on with him at the moment and I hope it's temporary.

Edit: that sounds harsh but basically it's because I think he can be a properly top class international 9, not a middling one, and I want him to be a real point of strength for us. He's missed 11 tackles in 2 matches though!

With Mitchell I thought his delivery slowed down when he was trying to make breaks and push the attack, almost like he's thinking too much. He's still the best option we have at the moment though.

We could really do with Quirke stringing more than two games together without breaking. He has the potential to be a worldy, but is permanently bloody injured.

[Kawazaki]

I'll tell you an England player who is getting on my radar - for all the wrong reasons - Ollie Lawrence. He's a media darling and forum favourite but his workrate is actually quite poor, particularly in defence.

Eh? He’s been the pick of the last 2 games for me - or at least very close

He's had some good interventions in attack but he's a lazy bugger in defence. A good example is the first try that Ireland scored - if you remember Mitchell missed Lowe in a one-on-one right by the touchline. If you watch that sequence again you'll see that Lawrence could - and should - at the very least, made it Lowe v two defenders rather than just Mitchell. He didn't even bother to accelerate once Lowe was past Mitchell either, just watched it all unfold as he lightly jogged behind.

When you see it, you'll ask yourself WTF?

[Kawazaki]

I'll tell you an England player who is getting on my radar - for all the wrong reasons - Ollie Lawrence. He's a media darling and forum favourite but his workrate is actually quite poor, particularly in defence.

Eh? He’s been the pick of the last 2 games for me - or at least very close

He's had some good interventions in attack but he's a lazy bugger in defence. A good example is the first try that Ireland scored - if you remember Mitchell missed Lowe in a one-on-one right by the touchline. If you watch that sequence again you'll see that Lawrence could - and should - at the very least, made it Lowe v two defenders rather than just Mitchell. He didn't even bother to accelerate once Lowe was past Mitchell either, just watched it all unfold as he lightly jogged behind.

When you see it, you'll ask yourself WTF?


edit: gifted a gif for you...

[Paddington Bear]

Ok no normally a poster on this thread (Bristol and Scotland fan) but thought here was most appropriate place for this comment.

Stephen Jones’s(Sunday Times) consistent and highly personal attacks on Marcus Smith are, in my view, completely unacceptable and go against all of rugby’s values.

For many he became irrelevant as a journalist some time ago but the failure of the Sunday times editorial staff and the RFU’s media team to curb this behaviour is reprehensible.

There are entirely legitimate grounds to criticise his performance yesterday but yes Jones has a nasty personal vendetta against him as a person, I’m yet to understand what is objectionable about him tbh.

Mentally Smith wasn’t at the races yesterday, not sure it would have come up on tv but on around the 60 minute mark we had a penalty on the 10 metre line, clearly Maro was eyeing up 3 points before Marcus sprinted in insisting on the corner. Seemed to me he didn’t fancy the kick, which is deeply unusual for him as his place kicking is up there with the best. Suggests a number of things, not least that Borthwick mishandled selection.

Just read his ST piece today, ridiculously over the top with his criticism. He’s been doing it for years though, he has his favourites and will use any tactic to prove himself right. Odious individual.

I have to say though, Finn S came good in the last 15 mins but was very average for most of the game. As I said earlier, I really liked the look of him but it wasn’t the breakthrough performance some seem to be saying

I bumped into a few of the A&C boys on the way home and ended my night in the old town being told that he’s a nailed on Lions starter. So one of you is wrong.

I think seriously it’s hard not to get excited about a 10 who in their first test start sets up 4 tries and engineers a last minute winner against a team of France’s quality. A lot of us have suspected he’s well set up for test rugby and that has given us some justification. He also ran a backline that scored twice quickly last week in his cameo. He’ll start against you guys and we’ll see how he does against a side that’s unlikely to drop the ball as regularly as a pub cricket team

[Hal Jordan]

Mitchell is the one I'm generally worried by this 6N so far. He's by far our best option but he's repeatedly gone the wrong way, been slow to get the ball out at critical moments, and has had opportunities for breaks that he's been too slow to take. Is he fully fit? His kicking game remains strong, and he'll always miss tackles, but there's something going on with him at the moment and I hope it's temporary.

Edit: that sounds harsh but basically it's because I think he can be a properly top class international 9, not a middling one, and I want him to be a real point of strength for us. He's missed 11 tackles in 2 matches though!

With Mitchell I thought his delivery slowed down when he was trying to make breaks and push the attack, almost like he's thinking too much. He's still the best option we have at the moment though.

We could really do with Quirke stringing more than two games together without breaking. He has the potential to be a worldy, but is permanently bloody injured.

I think we all know that Mitchell is just keeping the jersey warm until Borthwick's choice, JVP, is fit.

[Slick]

There are entirely legitimate grounds to criticise his performance yesterday but yes Jones has a nasty personal vendetta against him as a person, I’m yet to understand what is objectionable about him tbh.

Mentally Smith wasn’t at the races yesterday, not sure it would have come up on tv but on around the 60 minute mark we had a penalty on the 10 metre line, clearly Maro was eyeing up 3 points before Marcus sprinted in insisting on the corner. Seemed to me he didn’t fancy the kick, which is deeply unusual for him as his place kicking is up there with the best. Suggests a number of things, not least that Borthwick mishandled selection.

Just read his ST piece today, ridiculously over the top with his criticism. He’s been doing it for years though, he has his favourites and will use any tactic to prove himself right. Odious individual.

I have to say though, Finn S came good in the last 15 mins but was very average for most of the game. As I said earlier, I really liked the look of him but it wasn’t the breakthrough performance some seem to be saying

I bumped into a few of the A&C boys on the way home and ended my night in the old town being told that he’s a nailed on Lions starter. So one of you is wrong.

I think seriously it’s hard not to get excited about a 10 who in their first test start sets up 4 tries and engineers a last minute winner against a team of France’s quality. A lot of us have suspected he’s well set up for test rugby and that has given us some justification. He also ran a backline that scored twice quickly last week in his cameo. He’ll start against you guys and we’ll see how he does against a side that’s unlikely to drop the ball as regularly as a pub cricket team

This didn’t age well

[Slick]

There are entirely legitimate grounds to criticise his performance yesterday but yes Jones has a nasty personal vendetta against him as a person, I’m yet to understand what is objectionable about him tbh.

Mentally Smith wasn’t at the races yesterday, not sure it would have come up on tv but on around the 60 minute mark we had a penalty on the 10 metre line, clearly Maro was eyeing up 3 points before Marcus sprinted in insisting on the corner. Seemed to me he didn’t fancy the kick, which is deeply unusual for him as his place kicking is up there with the best. Suggests a number of things, not least that Borthwick mishandled selection.

Just read his ST piece today, ridiculously over the top with his criticism. He’s been doing it for years though, he has his favourites and will use any tactic to prove himself right. Odious individual.

I have to say though, Finn S came good in the last 15 mins but was very average for most of the game. As I said earlier, I really liked the look of him but it wasn’t the breakthrough performance some seem to be saying

I've just read it as well. Very mean spirited and personal. He just loves being a contrary twat, probably doesn't like the floppy hair and hitch-kicck!!
He's been writing for The Times since the mid 70's and it's about time he was put out to pasture and while they're at it they can also get rid of Barnes and Dallaglio as columnists
I would only have given M Smith a 6 rating at the very most and F Smith a 7 though I thought he played very well for the whole of the second half not just the last 10/15 minutes. Still, 2 good young fly halves fighting it out for the 10 shirt can't be a bad thing.

Just read David Walsh’s piece about it Marcus Smith, seems to me like a direct rebuttal to Jones

[inactionman]

I'll tell you an England player who is getting on my radar - for all the wrong reasons - Ollie Lawrence. He's a media darling and forum favourite but his workrate is actually quite poor, particularly in defence.

Eh? He’s been the pick of the last 2 games for me - or at least very close

He's had some good interventions in attack but he's a lazy bugger in defence. A good example is the first try that Ireland scored - if you remember Mitchell missed Lowe in a one-on-one right by the touchline. If you watch that sequence again you'll see that Lawrence could - and should - at the very least, made it Lowe v two defenders rather than just Mitchell. He didn't even bother to accelerate once Lowe was past Mitchell either, just watched it all unfold as he lightly jogged behind.

When you see it, you'll ask yourself WTF?


edit: gifted a gif for you...

Look, we've been through this.

Borthwick isn't going to pick Lozowski and Tomkins has decided he's Welsh.

[SaintK]

Eh? He’s been the pick of the last 2 games for me - or at least very close

He's had some good interventions in attack but he's a lazy bugger in defence. A good example is the first try that Ireland scored - if you remember Mitchell missed Lowe in a one-on-one right by the touchline. If you watch that sequence again you'll see that Lawrence could - and should - at the very least, made it Lowe v two defenders rather than just Mitchell. He didn't even bother to accelerate once Lowe was past Mitchell either, just watched it all unfold as he lightly jogged behind.

When you see it, you'll ask yourself WTF?


edit: gifted a gif for you...

Look, we've been through this.

Borthwick isn't going to pick Lozowski and Tomkins has decided he's Welsh.

They are welcome to him. He was absolute garbage on Saturday!!!

[Kawazaki]

Look, we've been through this.

Borthwick isn't going to pick Lozowski and Tomkins has decided he's Welsh.

I've got nothing against Lawrence, he's a decent player but there's plenty of work to be done by centres off the ball that he's not always doing. Watch the clip and judge for yourself, one of the Currys gets nearer than Lawrence does after running twice as far. This is coach-killer stuff in analysis.

[Paddington Bear]

He's had some good interventions in attack but he's a lazy bugger in defence. A good example is the first try that Ireland scored - if you remember Mitchell missed Lowe in a one-on-one right by the touchline. If you watch that sequence again you'll see that Lawrence could - and should - at the very least, made it Lowe v two defenders rather than just Mitchell. He didn't even bother to accelerate once Lowe was past Mitchell either, just watched it all unfold as he lightly jogged behind.

When you see it, you'll ask yourself WTF?


edit: gifted a gif for you...

Look, we've been through this.

Borthwick isn't going to pick Lozowski and Tomkins has decided he's Welsh.

They are welcome to him. He was absolute garbage on Saturday!!!

2021 he was really good for Wales. This season he’s been hopeless for club and country

[JM2K6]

Aside from a few matches close to his debut, his Wales career has been dismal. He's been surprisingly great at club level in general (this season aside) and surprisingly awful at international level.

[SaintK]

Interesting?

English rugby union bosses are considering a “rookie league” that could be introduced at under-20 level as soon as next season, with new data reinforcing the belief that the best youngsters in the country are still not playing enough.

https://archive.ph/Ch9tD#selection-3023.0-3023.234

[Tichtheid]

Interesting?

English rugby union bosses are considering a “rookie league” that could be introduced at under-20 level as soon as next season, with new data reinforcing the belief that the best youngsters in the country are still not playing enough.

https://archive.ph/Ch9tD#selection-3023.0-3023.234

I didn’t read the link, but from what is written there it’s almost the right thing to do, under 22, players coming back from injury and a limited number of experienced squad players would be the way to go - you want the young guys playing up a level and facing one or two gnarly bastards

[westport]

After going into administration, London Irish have been bought out by a consortium led by Eddie Jordan.
The Formula 1 businessman’s investment means a return to professional rugby is on the cards…

[SaintK]

After going into administration, London Irish have been bought out by a consortium led by Eddie Jordan.
The Formula 1 businessman’s investment means a return to professional rugby is on the cards…

If they can't get into the Championship they'll try for the URC!!!
https://archive.ph/VBGOq

[Yeeb]

After going into administration, London Irish have been bought out by a consortium led by Eddie Jordan.
The Formula 1 businessman’s investment means a return to professional rugby is on the cards…

If they can't get into the Championship they'll try for the URC!!!
https://archive.ph/VBGOq

As long as he doesn’t wheel out Katie price again as a promo girl

[Paddington Bear]

After going into administration, London Irish have been bought out by a consortium led by Eddie Jordan.
The Formula 1 businessman’s investment means a return to professional rugby is on the cards…

If they can't get into the Championship they'll try for the URC!!!
https://archive.ph/VBGOq

Zero danger of the RFU signing off on that you’d assume

[SaintK]

After going into administration, London Irish have been bought out by a consortium led by Eddie Jordan.
The Formula 1 businessman’s investment means a return to professional rugby is on the cards…

If they can't get into the Championship they'll try for the URC!!!
https://archive.ph/VBGOq

Zero danger of the RFU signing off on that you’d assume

Not sure. I think PRL are keen on it and I guess it wouldn't take much for the current bunch at the RFU to roll over.
Championship Rugby are dead against it and they've probably already briefed lawyers!!!!

[sockwithaticket]

A squad for the upcoming Ireland A game.

[SaintK]

A squad for the upcoming Ireland A game.

Waste of a place used up by JvP it could have been used to give McParland or another younger 9 more experience
Green and Haffar both good calls on present form. Kloska an interesting pick as he has only just converted from hooker to prop at Bears and is doing well. Kenningham a well deserved call up. Neither fly-half selected fills me with joy. Is Woodward the young centre at Tigers?

[Hal Jordan]

Main squad dabbling - Tom Curry injured but expected to make the Scotland match, Pollock called up as cover, Martin banged up but not broke.

England squad for 12-14 February camp
Forwards: Fin Baxter, Ollie Chessum, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Chandler Cunningham-South, Ben Curry, Theo Dan, Ben Earl, Ellis Genge, Jamie George, Joe Heyes, Ted Hill, Maro Itoje, Henry Pollock, Will Stuart, Tom Willis

Backs: Oscar Beard, Elliot Daly, George Ford, Tommy Freeman, Ollie Lawrence, Alex Mitchell, Harry Randall, Tom Roebuck, Henry Slade, Ollie Sleightholme, Fin Smith, Marcus Smith, Freddie Steward

Rehabilitation: Tom Curry, George Martin, Immanuel Feyi-Waboso

My phone autocorrected Tom Curry to Tim Curry.

[Hal Jordan]

A squad for the upcoming Ireland A game.

Waste of a place used up by JvP it could have been used to give McParland or another younger 9 more experience
Green and Haffar both good calls on present form. Kloska an interesting pick as he has only just converted from hooker to prop at Bears and is doing well. Kenningham a well deserved call up. Neither fly-half selected fills me with joy. Is Woodward the young centre at Tigers?

JVP probably there to get match fitness prior to Borthwick finangling him back into the starting jersey a.s.a.p.

[Oxbow]

A squad for the upcoming Ireland A game.

Waste of a place used up by JvP it could have been used to give McParland or another younger 9 more experience
Green and Haffar both good calls on present form. Kloska an interesting pick as he has only just converted from hooker to prop at Bears and is doing well. Kenningham a well deserved call up. Neither fly-half selected fills me with joy. Is Woodward the young centre at Tigers?

McParland is out for the season, had to have shoulder surgery after coming off injured in the first U20 game. Agree that JVP is a waste of a place though. Odd that Dingwall seems to be in neither the full squad or the A squad after captaining them to victory last time out.

[JM2K6]

A squad for the upcoming Ireland A game.

Haffar
Langdon
Green
Tizard
Lockett
Kenningham
Pearson
Barbeary
Porter
Bailey
Elliott
Butt
Ojomoh
Hendy
Carpenter

Could be handy

[Margin__Walker]

After going into administration, London Irish have been bought out by a consortium led by Eddie Jordan.
The Formula 1 businessman’s investment means a return to professional rugby is on the cards…

If they can't get into the Championship they'll try for the URC!!!
https://archive.ph/VBGOq

Zero danger of the RFU signing off on that you’d assume

It's an interesting one. I'd be surprised if Jordan with his experience has thrown a couple of million at the IP without some kind of viable path plotted. We'll see though.

[inactionman]

A squad for the upcoming Ireland A game.

Waste of a place used up by JvP it could have been used to give McParland or another younger 9 more experience
Green and Haffar both good calls on present form. Kloska an interesting pick as he has only just converted from hooker to prop at Bears and is doing well. Kenningham a well deserved call up. Neither fly-half selected fills me with joy. Is Woodward the young centre at Tigers?

McParland is out for the season, had to have shoulder surgery after coming off injured in the first U20 game. Agree that JVP is a waste of a place though. Odd that Dingwall seems to be in neither the full squad or the A squad after captaining them to victory last time out.

I think there will be a few that fall between the cracks of a full squad place and what is essentially a development, form-finding squad. Ted Hill seems in similar limbo, although he is in the main wider squad he hasn't yet got in to a matchday squad. Almost wondering if he's better off in the A squad to get a few runs.

Barbeary not quite at his firing best at Bath, interesting to see whether he's preferred to Fisilau (who looks handy, although more of a Zach Mercer sort of 8).

[SaintK]

A squad for the upcoming Ireland A game.

Waste of a place used up by JvP it could have been used to give McParland or another younger 9 more experience
Green and Haffar both good calls on present form. Kloska an interesting pick as he has only just converted from hooker to prop at Bears and is doing well. Kenningham a well deserved call up. Neither fly-half selected fills me with joy. Is Woodward the young centre at Tigers?

McParland is out for the season, had to have shoulder surgery after coming off injured in the first U20 game. Agree that JVP is a waste of a place though. Odd that Dingwall seems to be in neither the full squad or the A squad after captaining them to victory last time out.

Bugger! I thought it was short term

[SaintK]

A squad for the upcoming Ireland A game.

Haffar
Langdon
Green
Tizard
Lockett
Kenningham
Pearson
Barbeary
Porter
Bailey
Elliott
Butt
Ojomoh
Hendy
Carpenter

Could be handy

Pretty handy!
Not sure Tizard has really kicked on at Sarries for the big old unit he is. Shame Joe Batley crocked himself before the last A game.