The Official English Rugby Thread

[Stranger]

Is Woodward the young centre at Tigers?
yes and looking promising as a genuine 12

[SaintK]

Is Woodward the young centre at Tigers?
yes and looking promising as a genuine 12

[Raggs]

Hopeful that Ojomoh gets a good run out. Haffar too, and is AOF injured? Could be included.

[Paddington Bear]

If they can't get into the Championship they'll try for the URC!!!
https://archive.ph/VBGOq

Zero danger of the RFU signing off on that you’d assume

It's an interesting one. I'd be surprised if Jordan with his experience has thrown a couple of million at the IP without some kind of viable path plotted. We'll see though.

Certainly a useful negotiating position as a starting point

[JM2K6]

Would like to have seen Seb Atkinson if fit, he's a real talent in an area of paucity for England

[inactionman]

The review commissioned by the RFU into RFU remunerations has found the RFU remunerations to be acceptable

Glad that's sorted.

[SaintK]

The review commissioned by the RFU into RFU remunerations has found the RFU remunerations to be acceptable

Glad that's sorted.

Farcical!

[sockwithaticket]

The review commissioned by the RFU into RFU remunerations has found the RFU remunerations to be acceptable

Glad that's sorted.

IIRC there was a pretty narrow remit of verifying that remuneration was being issued according to RFU policy/guidelines.

Confirming that isn't necessarily saying that said policy/guidelines is in and of itself acceptable.

That said it does have a whiff of "we've investigated ourselves and found that we're doing nothing wrong".

[Paddington Bear]

The review commissioned by the RFU into RFU remunerations has found the RFU remunerations to be acceptable

Glad that's sorted.

IIRC there was a pretty narrow remit of verifying that remuneration was being issued according to RFU policy/guidelines.

Confirming that isn't necessarily saying that said policy/guidelines is in and of itself acceptable.

That said it does have a whiff of "we've investigated ourselves and found that we're doing nothing wrong".

Pretty much. If he wants to keep his job as much as he clearly does, not sure why Sweeney didn’t come straight out and say something along the lines of ‘I got the RFU through covid, I’m proud of that but recognise the award is over the top in the circumstances so I’m donating 50% to rugby charities’

Still unsure the RFU needs to pay a CEO £700k a year but we are where we are with that. IIRC c.2016 a home international was worth £10m, given ticket and pint prices you can probably double that but a £1m+ package is still a substantial amount of RFU revenue going to one man who doesn’t play or coach. I see it more personally from the ECB, but the amount of English sporting money going to off field admin and management is staggering.

Fortunately I paid for lunch and drinks in a lovely Richmond pub (the White Horse, able to get a seat, excellently kept beers and good food, recommended) rather than for the tickets Saturday so at least my personal cash went to something vaguely productive

[JM2K6]

My old local. As in "beer garden a few seconds from my front door". Always was a bit pricey.

[dpedin]

Really interesting article on BBC website today about the different routes taken by George and Genge to the top of the game.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... 6g31qjneeo

If they did the same analysis for Scottish rugby it would be the same or even more skewed towards the private school route.

[SaintK]

The review commissioned by the RFU into RFU remunerations has found the RFU remunerations to be acceptable

Glad that's sorted.

IIRC there was a pretty narrow remit of verifying that remuneration was being issued according to RFU policy/guidelines.

Confirming that isn't necessarily saying that said policy/guidelines is in and of itself acceptable.

That said it does have a whiff of "we've investigated ourselves and found that we're doing nothing wrong".

Pretty much. If he wants to keep his job as much as he clearly does, not sure why Sweeney didn’t come straight out and say something along the lines of ‘I got the RFU through covid, I’m proud of that but recognise the award is over the top in the circumstances so I’m donating 50% to rugby charities’

Still unsure the RFU needs to pay a CEO £700k a year but we are where we are with that. IIRC c.2016 a home international was worth £10m, given ticket and pint prices you can probably double that but a £1m+ package is still a substantial amount of RFU revenue going to one man who doesn’t play or coach. I see it more personally from the ECB, but the amount of English sporting money going to off field admin and management is staggering.

Fortunately I paid for lunch and drinks in a lovely Richmond pub (the White Horse, able to get a seat, excellently kept beers and good food, recommended) rather than for the tickets Saturday so at least my personal cash went to something vaguely productive

I wonder how much the RFU paid Freshfields to come up with their conclusion?

[SaintK]

Really interesting article on BBC website today about the different routes taken by George and Genge to the top of the game.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... 6g31qjneeo

If they did the same analysis for Scottish rugby it would be the same or even more skewed towards the private school route.

Very good article. I wonder how many potential top quality kids still slip through the net?
Don Barrell is a very interesting character. I've met him a couple of times at my club. Absolutely passionate about young player development. Wasn't too shabby a player himself.

[SaintK]

Malins back to Sarries next season.
I wonder if that means Goode is hanging up his boots?

[duke]

Malins back to Sarries next season.
I wonder if that means Goode is hanging up his boots?

It must be a little risky for Sarries given Malins is out with a ruptured Achilles at the moment

[fishfoodie]

Zero danger of the RFU signing off on that you’d assume

It's an interesting one. I'd be surprised if Jordan with his experience has thrown a couple of million at the IP without some kind of viable path plotted. We'll see though.

Certainly a useful negotiating position as a starting point

There might be a very interesting precedent !

I see it reported in the Guardian that RFU would block it, but then there was a discussion a few years ago in Ireland about setting up a 5th provincial team in London, & the same kind of arguments came into play about the UK being the domain of the RFU, etc, etc.

But then the Lawyers weighed in, & Soccer led the way !!

First there was Bozman(sp?), & restraint of trade, & then there was the case of Derry City FC, who used to ply their trade in the IFA Premiership, i.e. in the UK, then, sick of the sectarian shit, they upped metaphorical sticks & joined the FAI, i.e. RoI league. There were objections, but they got approval from UEFA to move, so there is case law on teams changing national domains.

[Tichtheid]

It's an interesting one. I'd be surprised if Jordan with his experience has thrown a couple of million at the IP without some kind of viable path plotted. We'll see though.

Certainly a useful negotiating position as a starting point

There might be a very interesting precedent !

I see it reported in the Guardian that RFU would block it, but then there was a discussion a few years ago in Ireland about setting up a 5th provincial team in London, & the same kind of arguments came into play about the UK being the domain of the RFU, etc, etc.

But then the Lawyers weighed in, & Soccer led the way !!

First there was Bozman(sp?), & restraint of trade, & then there was the case of Derry City FC, who used to ply their trade in the IFA Premiership, i.e. in the UK, then, sick of the sectarian shit, they upped metaphorical sticks & joined the FAI, i.e. RoI league. There were objections, but they got approval from UEFA to move, so there is case law on teams changing national domains.

Cardiff and Swansea both play in the English football leagues, Berwick Rangers play in the Scottish leagues

[fishfoodie]

Certainly a useful negotiating position as a starting point

There might be a very interesting precedent !

I see it reported in the Guardian that RFU would block it, but then there was a discussion a few years ago in Ireland about setting up a 5th provincial team in London, & the same kind of arguments came into play about the UK being the domain of the RFU, etc, etc.

But then the Lawyers weighed in, & Soccer led the way !!

First there was Bozman(sp?), & restraint of trade, & then there was the case of Derry City FC, who used to ply their trade in the IFA Premiership, i.e. in the UK, then, sick of the sectarian shit, they upped metaphorical sticks & joined the FAI, i.e. RoI league. There were objections, but they got approval from UEFA to move, so there is case law on teams changing national domains.

Cardiff and Swansea both play in the English football leagues, Berwick Rangers play in the Scottish leagues

Exactly. The existence of a national league our administrative org doesn't explicitly bind any a team to that league or org, & if the RFU tries to force the issue, they could end up with a black eye & a bloody big legal bill which might just open the door for a rebel "English Union" !

[Paddington Bear]

There might be a very interesting precedent !

I see it reported in the Guardian that RFU would block it, but then there was a discussion a few years ago in Ireland about setting up a 5th provincial team in London, & the same kind of arguments came into play about the UK being the domain of the RFU, etc, etc.

But then the Lawyers weighed in, & Soccer led the way !!

First there was Bozman(sp?), & restraint of trade, & then there was the case of Derry City FC, who used to ply their trade in the IFA Premiership, i.e. in the UK, then, sick of the sectarian shit, they upped metaphorical sticks & joined the FAI, i.e. RoI league. There were objections, but they got approval from UEFA to move, so there is case law on teams changing national domains.

Cardiff and Swansea both play in the English football leagues, Berwick Rangers play in the Scottish leagues

Exactly. The existence of a national league our administrative org doesn't explicitly bind any a team to that league or org, & if the RFU tries to force the issue, they could end up with a black eye & a bloody big legal bill which might just open the door for a rebel "English Union" !

Different sports are organised along different lines (and the three cases mentioned are ancient in sporting terms, and as far as I’m aware have never competed in their ‘home’ competitions anyway). In any case the Welsh FA seem happy with them competing in the English leagues and the FA don’t care about a team of Berwick’s calibre. Derry City I doubt were missed by the IFA. I.e. none of these cases were contested by the host union.

As much as anything this is an insurance issue based on how World Rugby sanction the game. There’s no slam dunk legal case in favour of it and I cannot believe that the URC and its various unions want to start a potentially very ugly war with the RFU.

A rebel English union has of course been tried before, with mixed results. They did, of course, set up a new sport to deal with a lot of the messy issues

[Kawazaki]

Harlequins 29 - Saracens 2nds 30

[Paddington Bear]

Harlequins 1st XV 29 - Saracens under 11s 30

Fixed that for you

[inactionman]

I noted the replacement scrumhalf for Sarries is the offspring of Kyran Bracken.

Any good?

[Kawazaki]

I noted the replacement scrumhalf for Sarries is the offspring of Kyran Bracken.

Any good?

Yes, very good. His baby brother came on as a replacement as well and literally ran straight through a Quins defender to score the winning try.


The Brackens pictured last week.

[Hal Jordan]

Blimey, St Helens have put 82 points on Salford I the League match this evening.

[inactionman]

Blimey, St Helens have put 82 points on Salford I the League match this evening.

It was arguably even more one-sided than it sounds.

St Helens are very good, but not looking clever for Salford given this showing.

[Brazil]

Blimey, St Helens have put 82 points on Salford I the League match this evening.

It was Salford's kids due to ongoing salary cap penalties so I wouldn't read too much into it, though Salford are likely to be shit

[SaintK]

JM2K6 will not be a happy man!!! An excellent prospect

Sale Sharks have agreed to sign Harlequins hooker Nathan Jibulu for next season.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-unio ... 0r4lknmo

[SaintK]

So the only change for England is Chessum to start and Martin to the bench.
I have no idea why Randall continues to be selected, I guess it must just be a pacee thing.
Starting XV: M Smith; Freeman, Lawrence, Slade, Sleightholme; F Smith, Mitchell; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Stuart, Itoje (capt), Chessum, T Curry, Earl, Willis.
Replacements: George, Baxter, Heyes, Martin, Cunningham-South, B Curry, Randall, Daly.

[Biffer]

It's an interesting one. I'd be surprised if Jordan with his experience has thrown a couple of million at the IP without some kind of viable path plotted. We'll see though.

Certainly a useful negotiating position as a starting point

There might be a very interesting precedent !

I see it reported in the Guardian that RFU would block it, but then there was a discussion a few years ago in Ireland about setting up a 5th provincial team in London, & the same kind of arguments came into play about the UK being the domain of the RFU, etc, etc.

But then the Lawyers weighed in, & Soccer led the way !!

First there was Bozman(sp?), & restraint of trade, & then there was the case of Derry City FC, who used to ply their trade in the IFA Premiership, i.e. in the UK, then, sick of the sectarian shit, they upped metaphorical sticks & joined the FAI, i.e. RoI league. There were objections, but they got approval from UEFA to move, so there is case law on teams changing national domains.

Bosman was about the working rights of the individual vs the employer. Doesn't apply at all in this case.

[Paddington Bear]

So the only change for England is Chessum to start and Martin to the bench.
I have no idea why Randall continues to be selected, I guess it must just be a pacee thing.
Starting XV: M Smith; Freeman, Lawrence, Slade, Sleightholme; F Smith, Mitchell; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Stuart, Itoje (capt), Chessum, T Curry, Earl, Willis.
Replacements: George, Baxter, Heyes, Martin, Cunningham-South, B Curry, Randall, Daly.

Hard to argue with.

Tbh now Borthwick has established that a 9 can play 80 minutes, we may as well gamble with one scrum half in the squad and give ourselves another outside back option

[Lobby]

So the only change for England is Chessum to start and Martin to the bench.
I have no idea why Randall continues to be selected, I guess it must just be a pacee thing.
Starting XV: M Smith; Freeman, Lawrence, Slade, Sleightholme; F Smith, Mitchell; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Stuart, Itoje (capt), Chessum, T Curry, Earl, Willis.
Replacements: George, Baxter, Heyes, Martin, Cunningham-South, B Curry, Randall, Daly.

Hard to argue with.

Tbh now Borthwick has established that a 9 can play 80 minutes, we may as well gamble with one scrum half in the squad and give ourselves another outside back option

Borthwick will probably try that against Italy. Mitchell will get injured in the first 5 minutes and we'll end up with Earl filling in at 9 for most of the game, which I expect will go just about as well as when Italy played Mauro Bergamasco at 9.

[Hal Jordan]

LCD continues to worry me, his lineout work has always been shonky, whoever he's been throwing in to, and he's not the dynamo he was before all the injuries, which was his main selling point.

Jamie George has been absolutely magnificent for England down the years, but time's catching up with him as well.

Martin has been a bit meh this 6N.

[SaintK]

LCD continues to worry me, his lineout work has always been shonky, whoever he's been throwing in to, and he's not the dynamo he was before all the injuries, which was his main selling point.

Jamie George has been absolutely magnificent for England down the years, but time's catching up with him as well.

Martin has been a bit meh this 6N.

A couple of the LCD lineout misses last match were lifting errors, though agree the injuries look to be catching up with him.
Thought George was excellent for the 20 minutes he was on against FRance
Dan doesn't exactly fill me with great hope for the future though he does add a bit of zip
I'm amazed that Oghre and Langdon haven't seen any game time off the bench this past 12 months

[Kawazaki]

So the only change for England is Chessum to start and Martin to the bench.
I have no idea why Randall continues to be selected, I guess it must just be a pacee thing.
Starting XV: M Smith; Freeman, Lawrence, Slade, Sleightholme; F Smith, Mitchell; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Stuart, Itoje (capt), Chessum, T Curry, Earl, Willis.
Replacements: George, Baxter, Heyes, Martin, Cunningham-South, B Curry, Randall, Daly.

Hard to argue with.

Tbh now Borthwick has established that a 9 can play 80 minutes, we may as well gamble with one scrum half in the squad and give ourselves another outside back option

Borthwick will probably try that against Italy. Mitchell will get injured in the first 5 minutes and we'll end up with Earl filling in at 9 for most of the game, which I expect will go just about as well as when Italy played Mauro Bergamasco at 9.

This is Borthwick remember. He'd bring on Steward to play scrumhalf and move Earl to fullback.

[Paddington Bear]

LCD continues to worry me, his lineout work has always been shonky, whoever he's been throwing in to, and he's not the dynamo he was before all the injuries, which was his main selling point.

Jamie George has been absolutely magnificent for England down the years, but time's catching up with him as well.

Martin has been a bit meh this 6N.

A couple of the LCD lineout misses last match were lifting errors, though agree the injuries look to be catching up with him.
Thought George was excellent for the 20 minutes he was on against FRance
Dan doesn't exactly fill me with great hope for the future though he does add a bit of zip
I'm amazed that Oghre and Langdon haven't seen any game time off the bench this past 12 months

Dan’s darts aren’t much better than LCD’s, but he adds a lot going forward. LCD much better at the scrum and Dan made an awful defensive call in Dublin which probably sealed the deal in that game. Agreed on George and he did absolutely everything that could have been asked of him off the bench last week, no shock Borthwick wants him to do it again

[Ovals]

LCD continues to worry me, his lineout work has always been shonky, whoever he's been throwing in to, and he's not the dynamo he was before all the injuries, which was his main selling point.

Jamie George has been absolutely magnificent for England down the years, but time's catching up with him as well.

Martin has been a bit meh this 6N.

A couple of the LCD lineout misses last match were lifting errors, though agree the injuries look to be catching up with him.
Thought George was excellent for the 20 minutes he was on against FRance
Dan doesn't exactly fill me with great hope for the future though he does add a bit of zip
I'm amazed that Oghre and Langdon haven't seen any game time off the bench this past 12 months

Maybe Chessum is a better lineout option than Martin and should help improve the Lineout when LCD is throwing.

[geordie_6]

Hard to argue with.

Tbh now Borthwick has established that a 9 can play 80 minutes, we may as well gamble with one scrum half in the squad and give ourselves another outside back option

Borthwick will probably try that against Italy. Mitchell will get injured in the first 5 minutes and we'll end up with Earl filling in at 9 for most of the game, which I expect will go just about as well as when Italy played Mauro Bergamasco at 9.

This is Borthwick remember. He'd bring on Steward to play scrumhalf and move Earl to fullback.

And probably encourage to Steward to snipe where possible.

[SaintK]

LCD continues to worry me, his lineout work has always been shonky, whoever he's been throwing in to, and he's not the dynamo he was before all the injuries, which was his main selling point.

Jamie George has been absolutely magnificent for England down the years, but time's catching up with him as well.

Martin has been a bit meh this 6N.

A couple of the LCD lineout misses last match were lifting errors, though agree the injuries look to be catching up with him.
Thought George was excellent for the 20 minutes he was on against FRance
Dan doesn't exactly fill me with great hope for the future though he does add a bit of zip
I'm amazed that Oghre and Langdon haven't seen any game time off the bench this past 12 months

Maybe Chessum is a better lineout option than Martin and should help improve the Lineout when LCD is throwing.

Appears to be more athletic than Martin

[Raggs]

So the only change for England is Chessum to start and Martin to the bench.
I have no idea why Randall continues to be selected, I guess it must just be a pacee thing.
Starting XV: M Smith; Freeman, Lawrence, Slade, Sleightholme; F Smith, Mitchell; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Stuart, Itoje (capt), Chessum, T Curry, Earl, Willis.
Replacements: George, Baxter, Heyes, Martin, Cunningham-South, B Curry, Randall, Daly.

Hard to argue with.

Tbh now Borthwick has established that a 9 can play 80 minutes, we may as well gamble with one scrum half in the squad and give ourselves another outside back option

9 is so specialised you really can't risk not having a spare unless unavoidable.

Better to have a scrum half playing on the wing, then a wing playing 9.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Borthwick will probably try that against Italy. Mitchell will get injured in the first 5 minutes and we'll end up with Earl filling in at 9 for most of the game, which I expect will go just about as well as when Italy played Mauro Bergamasco at 9.

This is Borthwick remember. He'd bring on Steward to play scrumhalf and move Earl to fullback.

And probably encourage to Steward to snipe where possible.

Does snipe mean kick now?