Bledisloe II: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sunday 18th Oct

[Ted.]

Whisper it quietly, but apart from Clarke today, I thought Hodgman had an outstanding debut. The scrum went better when he came on, and that was before Laulala's arrival. He was also strong in all the other areas. I think in one outing he's leapfrogged Tuinukuafe and Lomax.

[Dan54]

Have to say enjoyed that, enjoyed seeing Mounga playing with a bit more freedom, I really believe there a lot in this 2 playmakers just to install a little uncertainty in defence, lik, seemse JB as a 15 ,but not convinced he a wing even if it does make opposition jumpy about playing ball in air. Caleb Clarke? F*** me I hope he keeps it going, there looks something special there. Hodgeman was bloody good , seems some of these coaches have a bit more idea than us, he looked pretty ok. For a piss poor captain and 7 Cane is not too bad I thought. Ardie went well with a little bit of go forward for him to run onto. All in all fairly happy, because I still think this a not bad Wallabie's team that seem well coached.

[FujiKiwi]

Have to admit Cane played very well, including some really impactful carrying.

It was part of a vastly improved game plan involving taking it to the Aussies really hard up the middle.

My worry is now Foster will think he’s bought some time to go back to tinkering with silly, overly complicated plans. He yearns for it. He can’t leave it alone.

[Jb1981]

Have to say enjoyed that, enjoyed seeing Mounga playing with a bit more freedom, I really believe there a lot in this 2 playmakers just to install a little uncertainty in defence, lik, seemse JB as a 15 ,but not convinced he a wing even if it does make opposition jumpy about playing ball in air. Caleb Clarke? F*** me I hope he keeps it going, there looks something special there. Hodgeman was bloody good , seems some of these coaches have a bit more idea than us, he looked pretty ok. For a piss poor captain and 7 Cane is not too bad I thought. Ardie went well with a little bit of go forward for him to run onto. All in all fairly happy, because I still think this a not bad Wallabie's team that seem well coached.

NZ Rugby stooge .

It was an enjoyable game against what could turn into a strong Wallaby team. Backing up is the test now.

[Guy Smiley]

I get the same disturbing feeling I’ve been getting for the last few years...

Individual talent is overcoming poor structure. Why do we persist in box kicks off the back of hard win ball? Smith kicks possession away nearly all the time. Who actually does take the kicks? When the game got frantic either side of half time structure went out the window and what looked like luck and determination carried us through.

It’s good to walk away with a win and better form from key players but I actually agree with not couch here and think the result papers over the cracks.

[FujiKiwi]

Yeah, agree that the rinky-dink kicking doesn’t work.

It’s like they’re trying to create a bastardized version of Faf de Klerk.

[Dan54]

Have to say enjoyed that, enjoyed seeing Mounga playing with a bit more freedom, I really believe there a lot in this 2 playmakers just to install a little uncertainty in defence, lik, seemse JB as a 15 ,but not convinced he a wing even if it does make opposition jumpy about playing ball in air. Caleb Clarke? F*** me I hope he keeps it going, there looks something special there. Hodgeman was bloody good , seems some of these coaches have a bit more idea than us, he looked pretty ok. For a piss poor captain and 7 Cane is not too bad I thought. Ardie went well with a little bit of go forward for him to run onto. All in all fairly happy, because I still think this a not bad Wallabie's team that seem well coached.

NZ Rugby stooge .

It was an enjoyable game against what could turn into a strong Wallaby team. Backing up is the test now.

I try mate
I agree this looks a pretty reasonable Wallaby team. Pretty good game all together.

[Ted.]

I get the same disturbing feeling I’ve been getting for the last few years...

Individual talent is overcoming poor structure. Why do we persist in box kicks off the back of hard win ball? Smith kicks possession away nearly all the time. Who actually does take the kicks? When the game got frantic either side of half time structure went out the window and what looked like luck and determination carried us through.

It’s good to walk away with a win and better form from key players but I actually agree with not couch here and think the result papers over the cracks.

Absolutely. I was getting quite animated about the patently obvious low percentage box kicks and up and unders. I hate to say it, but Richie needs to take charge, rather emulating Smith it that regard. He needs to start leading the team around the park like we know he is capable of. If this is a continuation of Foster's bereft attack ideology, he needs to get the message that the players actually know what they are doing. I suspect Foster micro manages because he doesn't have a workable vision for the team. Let's not forget that Foster himself was a 1st 5/8 that kicked the shit out of the ball.

[Ted.]

Can Carter go into the camp for a week and teach these bastards how to kick though.

I pulled my bloody hair out.

Terrible weren't it. But a[apparently the AB's were effectively led around park. What arrant nonsense. Like fuck they were.

All the same, I thought we did a lot better in the backs, but not so much from the 9 10 axis, but from the back. I also thought ALB made a difference, especially with out defensive structure.

The breakdown was a fucking mess again. People coming from all directions including blatantly offside far too often, i.e like every tackle, ruck and maul. I felt that played into the Aussies hands more than it did us, not that we were in any way blameless, it just suited them more.

[Carter's Choice]

I get the same disturbing feeling I’ve been getting for the last few years...

Individual talent is overcoming poor structure. Why do we persist in box kicks off the back of hard win ball? Smith kicks possession away nearly all the time. Who actually does take the kicks? When the game got frantic either side of half time structure went out the window and what looked like luck and determination carried us through.

It’s good to walk away with a win and better form from key players but I actually agree with not couch here and think the result papers over the cracks.

There is truth in this.

Our 1st half was only average, as was our final 20 minutes. We executed one good 20 minute period just after halftime that ultimately won us the match, but overall we were not particularly great or much better than what is a very average Wallaby team on paper.

Overall, my quick take on the match:

Positives;

- Caleb Clarke: Was sensational. The best debut for years. he's an excitement machine and deserves to be considered our first choice no.11 into the future.

- Backrow: Today showed me that our current backrow could work. It's balanced. Frizell is a big body for hit ups, mauling and the lineout. Savea is a great ball runner and threat at the breakdown and Cane is a tackling machine (Savea had more tackles than him this week). If this is the trio foster wants moving forward I would implore him to keep selecting them as our starting backrow for the next two years. No more rotation!

- Dual Playmaker setup: This was the best I've seen Mo'unga and Barrett combine. BB played a more typical fullback role, finding space for himself on the edge and creating opportunities for his outside backs. Mo'unga was used exclusively at first reciever, and clearly enjoyed the opportunity to lead the team around. It's no surprise that with Barrett playing a more conventional 15 role, both players excelled.

- Tupou Vaa'i: I thought the young lock really stood up today and was good at the set piece, and both defensively and with ball in hand. He is a hard working, tight playing lock. I watched him very closely today and he plays like a White Brad Thorn.



Negatives;

- Our halfbacks: Increasingly they are slowing us down at the breakdown, for seemingly very little benefit. It's almost like they just like the attention. They pause our entire attacking momentum, only to simply throw the ball to the first receiver in a conventional manner or execute a very shallow, aimless box kick. There are loads of exciting young 9's emerging in NZ and I have a feeling that neither Smith or Perenara will be in our match day XXIII come RWC 2023.

- Our kicking game: It's still shit. Shallow box kicks form our halfbacks seem to be our first choice option anywhere in our own half. I'm not sure what the point of these kicks are? Because in the last two tests I can't remember anyone contesting these with intent to win the ball back for the AB's. The point of a high, shallow box kick is to win back possession; can someone please let our coaching team know this?

In terms of attacking kicks, it seems that the high cross kick for a winger, which Richie Mo'unga uses on a regular basis for the Crusaders, has been put back on the shelf. This is a shame because this tactics keeps defenses spread, and Jordie Barrett would potentially be a great target. I hope Foster isn't ignoring this tactic because it's something that Scott Robertson employs regularly.

- Right wing: I'm still not convinced that Jordie Barrett is the right options at 14. He looks like he's playing out of position. He lacks speed and acceleration, and these are a serious problem for a winger. He also aren't using his two strongest assets, his long general kicking game and his ariel skills. I think more attacking options, like Reecs or Will Jordan, would be better options on our Right Wing.

[Insane_Homer]

Worth a watch?

[Not_Couch]

In the past Hansen's systems got us through some tough games, especially against the likes of Ireland (2013) and South Africa (RWC 2015)

But it's 2020 now and we are playing like Ireland did in RWC 2019.

Box kick, defend defend defend, turnover counter attack, rinse, repeat

We are out of new ideas, and we can't seem to settle on a 15 that doesn't have players out of position.

Foster Out!

[Lemoentjie]

It will be interesting to see how Clarke does once he comes up against a real defence.

[Not_Couch]

Also can we all congratulate Dane Coles for bringing back some mongrel in the forward pack?

He got in Tupou's face like a vet should. Basically showing the Aussie Front Row who the alpha dog was.

[Guy Smiley]

Look at the Saffas, trying to be involved in rugby.

How cute.

[Carter's Choice]

All Blacks match threads are effectively now just posters talking up their provincial/franchise players and denigrating players from opposing provinces/franchises.

[Carter's Choice]

I get the same disturbing feeling I’ve been getting for the last few years...

Individual talent is overcoming poor structure. Why do we persist in box kicks off the back of hard win ball? Smith kicks possession away nearly all the time. Who actually does take the kicks? When the game got frantic either side of half time structure went out the window and what looked like luck and determination carried us through.

It’s good to walk away with a win and better form from key players but I actually agree with not couch here and think the result papers over the cracks.

Absolutely. I was getting quite animated south the patently obvious low percentage box kicks and up and unders. I hate to say it, but Richie needs to take charge, rather emulating Smith it that regard. He needs to start leading the team around the park like we know he is capable of. If this is a continuation of Foster's bereft attack ideology, he needs to get the message that the players actually know what they are doing. I suspect Foster micro manages because he doesn't have a workable vision for the team. Let's not forget that Foster himself was a 1st 5/8 that kicked the shit out of the ball.

You seem to be blaming Mo'unga for Aaron Smith's poor and shallow kicking over the past two tests? That's weird.

[Jb1981]

Worth a watch?

Yes. A step up from last week and an entertaining game.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

Look at the Saffas, trying to be involved in rugby.

How cute.

Yes they have decided the Rugby Championship was too hard so whenever you think of them assume a 0-40 scoreline immediately.

[Jb1981]

Scott Barrett’s 28 minutes was a positive that hasn’t been discussed. With 472 more minutes he’ll be good to go for test footy.

[Carter's Choice]

Scott Barrett’s 28 minutes was a positive that hasn’t been discussed. With 472 more minutes he’ll be good to go for test footy.

[Ymx]

In the past Hansen's systems got us through some tough games, especially against the likes of Ireland (2013) and South Africa (RWC 2015)

But it's 2020 now and we are playing like Ireland did in RWC 2019.

Box kick, defend defend defend, turnover counter attack, rinse, repeat

We are out of new ideas, and we can't seem to settle on a 15 that doesn't have players out of position.

Foster Out!

To be fair to Ireland, they at least had a strategic plan around the box kicks.

Our ones are just out of the blue, and often well inside our own half.

I don’t think it’s a strategy it’s just Smith going to his default option, when pressure on in the collisions

[Guy Smiley]

Scott Barrett’s 28 minutes was a positive that hasn’t been discussed. With 472 more minutes he’ll be good to go for test footy.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

Did Sco Baz get on did he? Oh well hopefully hes better for the gallop.

He's a good lock.

[Carter's Choice]

Did Sco Baz get on did he? Oh well hopefully hes better for the gallop.

He's a good lock.

Yep, he was solid if unspectacular - which is all you'd expect since he hasn't played since March. With Sam Whitelock likely due back for the next test it will be interesting to see the lock mix that Foster chooses for Bledisloe III. Tupou Vaa'i was good today, but so was PT. You'd think that if everyone is fit, Barrett and Whitelock start with Tuipulotu coming off the bench?

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

Did Sco Baz get on did he? Oh well hopefully hes better for the gallop.

He's a good lock.

Yep, he was solid if unspectacular - which is all you'd expect since he hasn't played since March. With Sam Whitelock likely due back for the next test it will be interesting to see the lock mix that Foster chooses for Bledisloe III. Tupou Vaa'i was good today, but so was PT. You'd think that if everyone is fit, Barrett and Whitelock start with Tuipulotu coming off the bench?

I was so pleased for PT today. Clearly he had eaten his full bowl of pasta like a good boy.

[Grandpa]

I'm still sticking to my thoughts a week ago...

Caleb Clarke must start...

Frizzell isn't doing it for me at 6.... I'd like to see Sotutu or Papilii given a chance...

Jordie Barrett still should be nowhere near the team...

Where is Will Jordan?

Jury will be out on the All Blacks till they come up against a more physical team.. SA, England, France (in France)

Or at least win both matches against Australia.. in Australia... currently I think they'll lose at least one.

[Kiwias]

.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

I'm still sticking to my thoughts a week ago...

Caleb Clarke must start...

Frizzell isn't doing it for me at 6.... I'd like to see Sotutu or Papilii given a chance...

Jordie Barrett still should be nowhere near the team...

Where is Will Jordan?

Jury will be out on the All Blacks till they come up against a more physical team.. SA, England, France (in France)

Or at least win both matches against Australia.. in Australia... currently I think they'll lose at least one.

Frizell was okay today. I was more pleased with big Paddy. He was very good.

[Kiwias]

I'm still sticking to my thoughts a week ago...

Caleb Clarke must start...

Frizzell isn't doing it for me at 6.... I'd like to see Sotutu or Papilii given a chance...

Jordie Barrett still should be nowhere near the team...

Where is Will Jordan?

Jury will be out on the All Blacks till they come up against a more physical team.. SA, England, France (in France)

Or at least win both matches against Australia.. in Australia... currently I think they'll lose at least one.

If Jordan had been on the right wing, who reckons he would have scored the try from the BB grubber at around 10'? Or Sevu Reece, for that matter.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

I'm curious as to why Beau Baz is so vocal about preferring 10.

He goes so well at the back with more space and time.

No way he has time to make those plays at 10.

[Grandpa]

I'm still sticking to my thoughts a week ago...

Caleb Clarke must start...

Frizzell isn't doing it for me at 6.... I'd like to see Sotutu or Papilii given a chance...

Jordie Barrett still should be nowhere near the team...

Where is Will Jordan?

Jury will be out on the All Blacks till they come up against a more physical team.. SA, England, France (in France)

Or at least win both matches against Australia.. in Australia... currently I think they'll lose at least one.

If Jordan had been on the right wing, who reckons he would have scored the try from the BB grubber at around 10'? Or Sevu Reece, for that matter.

Or any winger with pace...

Jordie is a very safe option at fullback... maybe start him in a world cup semi if it's pouring with rain... that's it....

[Kiwias]

Just re-watching the match and I can't see how Moody will be back for the 1st test in Aus. He was out cold before he hit the deck.

[Carter's Choice]

I'm curious as to why Beau Baz is so vocal about preferring 10.

He goes so well at the back with more space and time.

No way he has time to make those plays at 10.

I think it's the Kiwi mindset where we elevate the 10 and 7 jerseys above all others.

[Grandpa]

I'm still sticking to my thoughts a week ago...

Caleb Clarke must start...

Frizzell isn't doing it for me at 6.... I'd like to see Sotutu or Papilii given a chance...

Jordie Barrett still should be nowhere near the team...

Where is Will Jordan?

Jury will be out on the All Blacks till they come up against a more physical team.. SA, England, France (in France)

Or at least win both matches against Australia.. in Australia... currently I think they'll lose at least one.

Frizell was okay today. I was more pleased with big Paddy. He was very good.

Barely ok. I want more impact from an All Black number 6... at least either knock people backwards in tackles... monster rucks... or run those channels near the set piece and rucks that Ted referred to in his Wairarapa Bush talk... I'm still not really seeing that from the loosies.... NZ still go wide nearly all the time.. unless they kick... Sam Cane's runs came when he was in the backline... not near the ruck... same with Ardie...

[Carter's Choice]

I think that there is real potential in the Savea/Cane/Frizell backrow and I hope Foster sticks with them for the next 12-24 months. It's as balanced as we can select given Cane and Savea are guaranteed selections. I thought Frizell worked hard in the tight, mauled well, cleaned out well and was a target at lineout time. He's not in the team to be a ball runner, that Savea's role currently. Frizell has more upside than recent options that we've tried at 6 such as Squire, Jacobsen or Fifita.

[Raggs]

Don't know the result, only watched 10 minutes so far. Thought after 5 minutes last week, the ABs were going to lose, now with a better idea of the level of the Aussies too, I suspect this one finishes as a reasonable, but not dominant, AB win. Be fun to see. Pretty much my entire assessment is based on their physicality in the ruck, it's better than last week, but still not at the bone crunching levels I expect to see from them.

[Grandpa]

I think that there is real potential in the Savea/Cane/Frizell backrow and I hope Foster sticks with them for the next 12-24 months. It's as balanced as we can select given Cane and Savea are guaranteed selections. I thought Frizell worked hard in the tight, mauled well, cleaned out well and was a target at lineout time. He's not in the team to be a ball runner, that Savea's role currently. Frizell has more upside than recent options that we've tried at 6 such as Squire, Jacobsen or Fifita.

He doesn't have to be in for his ball carrying, as long as he is making an impact elsewhere... lineout is about the only place I am seeing it... Frizzell just doesn't bring enough physicality for me... maybe we were spoilt with Kaino... but I just look at the SA or England backrow.. and NZ's seems lacking somehow... just imagine a 26 yr old Kaino in with Cane and Ardie... I want that feeling back...

[Not_Couch]

Frizzell is not world class in his position. Foster needs a more physical presence in the back row, and Sotutu offers that. We don't need more athleticism with Cane and Savea already in there tackling like demons and turning over rucks. We need a bruiser. Frizzell gets monstered by the bigger PI boys the Wallabies have. Ardie at least has the correct technique of pumping his legs in the tackle to gain ascendancy.

As for PT he was solid at the lineouts but his workrate around the rucks was Akira Ioane lazy, he would never put his huge body in and when he did it would be a flop allowing Michael Hooper to steal ball with ease. PT loves to think he's a ball running lock and prefers to be in the backline action, even that setup try run when he threw the ball to Cane basketball style which works in the 2nd half when you're up by 15 but not in tight games when you need your tight five to do the hard yards. His workrate is not like Lurch or Whitelock who do do the hard yards before they unleash there attacking prowess.

[Steve]

I'm still sticking to my thoughts a week ago...

Caleb Clarke must start...

Frizzell isn't doing it for me at 6.... I'd like to see Sotutu or Papilii given a chance...

Jordie Barrett still should be nowhere near the team...

Where is Will Jordan?

Jury will be out on the All Blacks till they come up against a more physical team.. SA, England, France (in France)

Or at least win both matches against Australia.. in Australia... currently I think they'll lose at least one.

Frizell was okay today. I was more pleased with big Paddy. He was very good.

Agree wholeheartedly about Frizell. Jordie is 15 or bench for me also.

Its hard to grumble about a 20 point win in a Bledisloe but there is something not quite right with NZ at the moment.

There are too many compromises/accomodations on the field at the same time. Jordie on the wing, Beaudy at FB, Goodhue at 12, Ardie at 8. Each one is fine in isolation but when you add them up its all a bit helter skelter and thrown together like a Jackson Pollock painting.

Id love to see Laumape at 12 and im fully confident that when Will Jordan makes his debut (barring injury) he will never get dropped ever again. Will Jordan will have a Ben Smith-esque career where he is world class at 15 and 14.

I think the Allblacks will also look better with Beaudy on sabbatical next year. Not because he is not playing well, but because the deck gets shuffled too much to facilitate everyone. It will declutter Fosters mind at the selection table I feel.


I like Goodhue and ALB immensely but not together. Its a 12 plus one of them at 13 for me.

6,12,14 can be improved upon and are still up for grabs based on what I have seen.