So, coronavirus...

Where goats go to escape
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Openside
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Biffer wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:26 pm
Openside wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:56 pm
Saint wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:45 am

1 - Pharmacies don't have records of the whole country, so can't ensure that the required categories are getting the request (also, few have the required refrigeration for Pfizer anyway)
2 - That is still down to supply. Right now we have the capability to deliver more vaccine this week than we will have supply. That may change over the next few weeks as supply is expected to increase dramatically

So let them inoculate the AZ variety - not sure there is much Pfizer left from Original batch. (unless they are doing away with second doses.)
And how do you plan to get round the other problems?
If ever there was a time a National ID card was a good idea.

The people should be sent to the pharmacies NOT summoned by them.
Jock42
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Openside wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:04 pm
Jock42 wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:02 pm Mate, I've done that twice today and got the extra 6th dose out of the first vial. The drama is have enough left for 6.

Storage is the main issue. We have 5 days from delivery then 6 hours from dilution to use our allocation.
How long before Pfizer start reducing the amount in the vial to ensure you are only getting the 5 you have paid for??
Not an Aberdonian company so should be OK :lol:
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Uncle fester
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Openside wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:04 pm
Jock42 wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:02 pm Mate, I've done that twice today and got the extra 6th dose out of the first vial. The drama is have enough left for 6.

Storage is the main issue. We have 5 days from delivery then 6 hours from dilution to use our allocation.
How long before Pfizer start reducing the amount in the vial to ensure you are only getting the 5 you have paid for??
They probably can't. Vials must have a minimum of 5 doses and if filling accuracy is +/-1 dose (an example) then they must always aim for 6 in order to be certain of getting 5.
Bimbowomxn
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Openside wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:36 pm
Biffer wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:26 pm
Openside wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:56 pm


So let them inoculate the AZ variety - not sure there is much Pfizer left from Original batch. (unless they are doing away with second doses.)
And how do you plan to get round the other problems?
If ever there was a time a National ID card was a good idea.

The people should be sent to the pharmacies NOT summoned by them.

Or give a billion to Amazon to add it their App. It wouldn’t take em long.
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Saint
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Biffer wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:26 pm
Openside wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:56 pm
Saint wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:45 am

1 - Pharmacies don't have records of the whole country, so can't ensure that the required categories are getting the request (also, few have the required refrigeration for Pfizer anyway)
2 - That is still down to supply. Right now we have the capability to deliver more vaccine this week than we will have supply. That may change over the next few weeks as supply is expected to increase dramatically

So let them inoculate the AZ variety - not sure there is much Pfizer left from Original batch. (unless they are doing away with second doses.)
And how do you plan to get round the other problems?
Even if we were to still be double dosing, we should have a million or so doses either in country or arriving over the next couple of weeks - and over 30 million over the next 3-4 months. Pfizer will continue to be a large part of our vaccination programme
Biffer
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Openside wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:36 pm
Biffer wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:26 pm
Openside wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:56 pm


So let them inoculate the AZ variety - not sure there is much Pfizer left from Original batch. (unless they are doing away with second doses.)
And how do you plan to get round the other problems?
If ever there was a time a National ID card was a good idea.

The people should be sent to the pharmacies NOT summoned by them.
But we don't have that. So what would you do to get round them right now?
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
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Raggs
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Biffer wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:42 pmBut we don't have that. So what would you do to get round them right now?
Move straight to the next step and microchip everyone... oh wait, that's what we're doing! :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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Openside
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Jock42 wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:39 pm
Openside wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:04 pm
Jock42 wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:02 pm Mate, I've done that twice today and got the extra 6th dose out of the first vial. The drama is have enough left for 6.

Storage is the main issue. We have 5 days from delivery then 6 hours from dilution to use our allocation.
How long before Pfizer start reducing the amount in the vial to ensure you are only getting the 5 you have paid for??
Not an Aberdonian company so should be OK :lol:
:lol: :lol: :clap: :clap:
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Openside
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Biffer wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:42 pm
Openside wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:36 pm
Biffer wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:26 pm

And how do you plan to get round the other problems?
If ever there was a time a National ID card was a good idea.

The people should be sent to the pharmacies NOT summoned by them.
But we don't have that. So what would you do to get round them right now?
Send people to pharmacies and then send pharmacy a list of who they should be vaccinating - not on list no vaccine. Its not that difficult.

For the non vulnerable they should vaccinate in aircraft hangers (or outside if the weather is good and then once vaccinated get people to walk down those Airport type queuing systems (socially distanced) that take 10 mins to allow for anaphylactic shock checks.
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Insane_Homer
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:eek: :sad:
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tc27
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Over 1000.

Unbelievably grim.
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frodder
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Truly awful numbers
dpedin
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Bimbowomxn wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:02 pm
Openside wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:36 pm
Biffer wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:26 pm

And how do you plan to get round the other problems?
If ever there was a time a National ID card was a good idea.

The people should be sent to the pharmacies NOT summoned by them.

Or give a billion to Amazon to add it their App. It wouldn’t take em long.
Whilst it is easy to throw these comments about it is a little bit more complicated than that!

We need to ensure the correct folk with the appropriate age and co-mobidity health record are prioritised and called up in the right order. We need to make sure they arrive and if not follow up their DNA and possibly have a back up list of folk to fill the gaps. We need to maintain records of who has had what vaccine and this needs to be included on their patient record, which is obviously confidential. This will help with any follow up research, analysis etc. We need a system for ensuring those inoculated with 1st vaccine get called back in the right timescales with the same vaccine. We might need to be able to call these folk back next year for another vaccine if required, we don't know yet but this might be different for folk who have had different vaccines. We might also need to make sure carers for those most vulnerable are also called up at the same time. We need to make sure those who are inoculating are safe to do so and we keep a record of who had carried out the procedure, etc etc etc.

I'm not saying Amazon couldn't do all the above, even if they were allowed to access our private health records but I'm not sure leaving your vaccine on your doorstep if you're not in is really all that desirable!

Watching the debacle that is happening in the states, the home of the free and the private sector, regards the vaccine distribution and administration doesn't really provide a case study of how to do it well.
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tabascoboy
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dpedin wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:18 pm
I'm not saying Amazon couldn't do all the above, even if they were allowed to access our private health records but I'm not sure leaving your vaccine on your doorstep if you're not in is really all that desirable!

Neither would be having it thrown over a hedge into a "safe" area
AN AMAZON shopper was left scratching his head after a delivery driver left his package on top of an 8ft high hedge.

Adam Kupiec, 34, said he was home on New Year's Eve when he received a confirmation email from Amazon saying his parcel "was handed to resident".
Bimbowomxn
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dpedin wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:18 pm
Bimbowomxn wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:02 pm
Openside wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:36 pm

If ever there was a time a National ID card was a good idea.

The people should be sent to the pharmacies NOT summoned by them.

Or give a billion to Amazon to add it their App. It wouldn’t take em long.
Whilst it is easy to throw these comments about it is a little bit more complicated than that!

We need to ensure the correct folk with the appropriate age and co-mobidity health record are prioritised and called up in the right order. We need to make sure they arrive and if not follow up their DNA and possibly have a back up list of folk to fill the gaps. We need to maintain records of who has had what vaccine and this needs to be included on their patient record, which is obviously confidential. This will help with any follow up research, analysis etc. We need a system for ensuring those inoculated with 1st vaccine get called back in the right timescales with the same vaccine. We might need to be able to call these folk back next year for another vaccine if required, we don't know yet but this might be different for folk who have had different vaccines. We might also need to make sure carers for those most vulnerable are also called up at the same time. We need to make sure those who are inoculating are safe to do so and we keep a record of who had carried out the procedure, etc etc etc.

I'm not saying Amazon couldn't do all the above, even if they were allowed to access our private health records but I'm not sure leaving your vaccine on your doorstep if you're not in is really all that desirable!

Watching the debacle that is happening in the states, the home of the free and the private sector, regards the vaccine distribution and administration doesn't really provide a case study of how to do it well.


Yeah, Amazon Web services are doorstep delivered. The idea that the App could not arrange for the sending of information to a GP surgery or have a calendar function though is funny.
dpedin
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Bimbowomxn wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:09 am
dpedin wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:18 pm
Bimbowomxn wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:02 pm


Or give a billion to Amazon to add it their App. It wouldn’t take em long.
Whilst it is easy to throw these comments about it is a little bit more complicated than that!

We need to ensure the correct folk with the appropriate age and co-mobidity health record are prioritised and called up in the right order. We need to make sure they arrive and if not follow up their DNA and possibly have a back up list of folk to fill the gaps. We need to maintain records of who has had what vaccine and this needs to be included on their patient record, which is obviously confidential. This will help with any follow up research, analysis etc. We need a system for ensuring those inoculated with 1st vaccine get called back in the right timescales with the same vaccine. We might need to be able to call these folk back next year for another vaccine if required, we don't know yet but this might be different for folk who have had different vaccines. We might also need to make sure carers for those most vulnerable are also called up at the same time. We need to make sure those who are inoculating are safe to do so and we keep a record of who had carried out the procedure, etc etc etc.

I'm not saying Amazon couldn't do all the above, even if they were allowed to access our private health records but I'm not sure leaving your vaccine on your doorstep if you're not in is really all that desirable!

Watching the debacle that is happening in the states, the home of the free and the private sector, regards the vaccine distribution and administration doesn't really provide a case study of how to do it well.


Yeah, Amazon Web services are doorstep delivered. The idea that the App could not arrange for the sending of information to a GP surgery or have a calendar function though is funny.
I had almost forgotten what it was like to have the Bimbotwat around!
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frodder
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dpedin wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:03 am
Bimbowomxn wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:09 am
dpedin wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:18 pm

Whilst it is easy to throw these comments about it is a little bit more complicated than that!

We need to ensure the correct folk with the appropriate age and co-mobidity health record are prioritised and called up in the right order. We need to make sure they arrive and if not follow up their DNA and possibly have a back up list of folk to fill the gaps. We need to maintain records of who has had what vaccine and this needs to be included on their patient record, which is obviously confidential. This will help with any follow up research, analysis etc. We need a system for ensuring those inoculated with 1st vaccine get called back in the right timescales with the same vaccine. We might need to be able to call these folk back next year for another vaccine if required, we don't know yet but this might be different for folk who have had different vaccines. We might also need to make sure carers for those most vulnerable are also called up at the same time. We need to make sure those who are inoculating are safe to do so and we keep a record of who had carried out the procedure, etc etc etc.

I'm not saying Amazon couldn't do all the above, even if they were allowed to access our private health records but I'm not sure leaving your vaccine on your doorstep if you're not in is really all that desirable!

Watching the debacle that is happening in the states, the home of the free and the private sector, regards the vaccine distribution and administration doesn't really provide a case study of how to do it well.


Yeah, Amazon Web services are doorstep delivered. The idea that the App could not arrange for the sending of information to a GP surgery or have a calendar function though is funny.
I had almost forgotten what it was like to have the Bimbotwat around!
He got banned for that type of name calling apparently
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sturginho
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apologies if this has already been done:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... h-one.html
I like neeps
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sturginho wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:50 pm apologies if this has already been done:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... h-one.html
I do phonelinking volunteering for isolated people and one of the people I call absolutely wouldn't get the Pfizer jab despite being at high risk and contacted for it because they wanted to wait for the Oxford one. It's not really a problem as long as they're vaccinated which they will be. But quite funny.
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sturginho
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I like neeps wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:55 pm
sturginho wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:50 pm apologies if this has already been done:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... h-one.html
I do phonelinking volunteering for isolated people and one of the people I call absolutely wouldn't get the Pfizer jab despite being at high risk and contacted for it because they wanted to wait for the Oxford one. It's not really a problem as long as they're vaccinated which they will be. But quite funny.
It's just sad really
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Saint
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sturginho wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:59 pm
I like neeps wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:55 pm
sturginho wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:50 pm apologies if this has already been done:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... h-one.html
I do phonelinking volunteering for isolated people and one of the people I call absolutely wouldn't get the Pfizer jab despite being at high risk and contacted for it because they wanted to wait for the Oxford one. It's not really a problem as long as they're vaccinated which they will be. But quite funny.
It's just sad really
For the moment it's the German manufactured Oxford jab anyway. No real supply of good old "made In England" for a couple of weeks
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Insane_Homer
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fuckinghell.JPG
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Paddington Bear
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Insane_Homer wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:28 pm fuckinghell.JPG
Image
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
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JM2K6
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Margin__Walker
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Yeah, just saw that JM. His stuff is superb and he's well worth a follow on Twitter.

Edit - Did enjoy someone replying decrying that this chart should be on mainstream media. He works for the FT FFS. It is
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tabascoboy
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Vaccinations due to start Jan 11th in my area, none have been performed yet.
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Raggs
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tabascoboy wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:05 pm Vaccinations due to start Jan 11th in my area, none have been performed yet.
Mum booked in for Friday, wife booked in for Saturday. Lovely.
Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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Saint
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tabascoboy wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:05 pm Vaccinations due to start Jan 11th in my area, none have been performed yet.
Mrs Saint gets hers tomorrow. All the care homes completed (and that's a high % of the local population), now moving on to group 2
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fishfoodie
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Raggs wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:33 pm
tabascoboy wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:05 pm Vaccinations due to start Jan 11th in my area, none have been performed yet.
Mum booked in for Friday, wife booked in for Saturday. Lovely.
Are you going to do a Mrs Doubtfire yourself Raggs to get your jab ? :grin:
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Raggs
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fishfoodie wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:08 pm
Raggs wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:33 pm
tabascoboy wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:05 pm Vaccinations due to start Jan 11th in my area, none have been performed yet.
Mum booked in for Friday, wife booked in for Saturday. Lovely.
Are you going to do a Mrs Doubtfire yourself Raggs to get your jab ? :grin:
Well, the main visitor we have should be getting his in the next month or so I guess. Then in truth, I'd rather give mine to my son. He socialises far more than I do, and if everyone I have regular contact with is vaccinated, I'll be protected fairly well (not that I need to be).
Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Jock42
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Had my first, we've got through about 50% of staff so its looking good for us getting a 2nd vaccination well under the 12 weeks.
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C69
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Tocilizumab and sarilumab found to be effective and can be used with Dexamethasone.
:clap:

Clinical trial results show the drugs reduce risk of death by 24% for critically ill patients and time spent in intensive care by up to 10 days.

Published 7 January 2021
From:
Department of Health and Social Care

Patients in intensive care units across the UK are to receive potentially life-saving treatments for COVID-19
Government ensures life-saving drugs will be available in NHS healthcare settings with immediate effect
Patients across the UK who are admitted to intensive care units due to COVID-19 are set to receive new life-saving treatments which can reduce the time spent in hospital by up to 10 days, the government has announced today (Thursday 7 January).

Results from the government-funded REMAP-CAP clinical trial published today showed tocilizumab and sarilumab reduced the relative risk of death by 24%, when administered to patients within 24 hours of entering intensive care.

Most of the data came from when the drugs were administered in addition to a corticosteroid, such as dexamethasone – also discovered through government-backed research through the RECOVERY clinical trial – which is already provided as standard of care to the NHS.

Patients receiving these drugs, typically used to treat rheumatoid arthritis, left intensive care between 7 to 10 days earlier on average. The rollout of these treatments could therefore contribute significantly towards reducing pressures on hospitals over the coming weeks and months.

Updated guidance will be issued tomorrow by the government and the NHS to trusts across the UK, encouraging them to use tocilizumab in their treatment of COVID-19 patients who are admitted to intensive care units, effective immediately.

Supplies of tocilizumab are already available in hospitals across the UK and clinicians will be able to treat all those admitted to intensive care units, potentially saving hundreds of lives. The department is working closely with Roche, who manufacture tocilizumab, to ensure treatments continue to be available to UK patients.

Health and Social Care Secretary Matt Hancock said:

The UK has proven time and time again it is at the very forefront of identifying and providing the most promising, innovative treatments for its patients.

Today’s results are yet another landmark development in finding a way out of this pandemic and, when added to the armoury of vaccines and treatments already being rolled out, will play a significant role in defeating this virus.

We have worked quickly to ensure this treatment is available to NHS patients without delay, meaning hundreds of lives will be saved.

I am hugely proud of the significant role our NHS and its patients have played in this international trial, and grateful to the outstanding scientists and clinicians behind REMAP-CAP who have brought this treatment to our patients.

Deputy Chief Medical Officer Professor Jonathan Van-Tam said:

This is a significant step forward for increasing survival of patients in intensive care with COVID-19. The data shows that tocilizumab, and likely sarilumab, speed up and improve the odds of recovery in intensive care, which is crucial for helping to relieve pressure on intensive care and hospitals and saving lives.

This is evidence of the UK’s excellent research infrastructure and life sciences industry advancing global understanding of this disease, which we have done both through our own programme of clinical research and through our ability to make very large contributions to international studies.

In June last year, the UK government approved dexamethasone as the world’s first treatment proven to reduce mortality for COVID-19. The REMAP-CAP trial found that the rate of death for those in intensive care units on corticosteroids, such as dexamethasone, and respiratory support alone was 35%, which was reduced to 28% when tocilizumab was also administered.

The government continues to work in partnership to ensure global equitable access to safe and effective treatments. Only multilateral collaboration can deliver at the speed and scale needed to end the global pandemic, and the government remains committed to participating in international trials such as this that seek to answer important questions about the virus.

The UK has played an integral role in these international efforts: three-quarters of patients enrolled globally have been NHS patients, in 142 hospitals across the UK – roughly half of the 289 total sites across the world. A quarter of all patients in intensive care with COVID-19 have enrolled and continue to volunteer to enrol in the REMAP-CAP trial – all of whom have made a vital contribution to the research needed to beat this disease.

Support also came from the UK’s National Institute for Health Research (NIHR), its well-established Clinical Research Network and the UK’s Chief Medical Officers. The UK government has, to date, provided £1.2 million to support the REMAP-CAP trial.

Professor Stephen Powis, NHS national medical director, said:

The fact there is now another drug that can help to reduce mortality for patients with COVID-19 is hugely welcome news and another positive development in the continued fight against the virus.

This signals how the NHS is working all the time to find new treatments and therapies, but the best advice for individuals is to remember the hands, face, space guidance.

Background information
The REMAP-CAP analysis has not yet been peer-reviewed.

Tocilizumab is administered intravenously in a one or two-dose regime. It has been demonstrated to be effective for patients requiring organ support when administered soon after admission to ICU.

Other trials such as the RECOVERY trial are assessing efficacy in wider patient groups outside of intensive care settings, but these are still ongoing. REMAP-CAP has not tested the effectiveness of tocilizumab in primary care settings.

Tocilizumab will be used to further reduce mortality from COVID-19 and in addition to dexamethasone, which is already standard of care for hospitalised patients receiving supplemental oxygen.

Tocilizumab and sarilumab have already been added to the government’s export restriction list, which bans companies from buying medicines meant for UK patients and selling them on for a higher price in another country. This will protect supply for UK patients by enforcing regulatory action on those who flout the restrictions.

The REMAP-CAP trial showed that mortality was 35.8% for patients receiving current standard of care alone, and that this was reduced to 27.3% using tocilizumab and sarilumab. This was a 24% relative reduction in risk of mortality for patients who entered intensive care.
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Sandstorm
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Even the Asians are struggling:
As part of their ongoing response to COVID-19, Japan has declared a state of emergency in Tokyo, Chiba, Saitama, and Kanagawa prefectures
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Raggs
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Sandstorm wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:55 am Even the Asians are struggling:
As part of their ongoing response to COVID-19, Japan has declared a state of emergency in Tokyo, Chiba, Saitama, and Kanagawa prefectures
Japan haven't done as well as a fair few others. South Korea losing control (albeit perhaps drawing it back in now) is more significant fo rme.
Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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Sandstorm
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Raggs wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:58 am
Sandstorm wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:55 am Even the Asians are struggling:
As part of their ongoing response to COVID-19, Japan has declared a state of emergency in Tokyo, Chiba, Saitama, and Kanagawa prefectures
Japan haven't done as well as a fair few others. South Korea losing control (albeit perhaps drawing it back in now) is more significant for me.
Tokyo and surrounding prefectures is about the size of London + Surrey, but has 3 times the population. Not easy keeping people apart.
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Raggs
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Sandstorm wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:00 am
Raggs wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:58 am
Sandstorm wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:55 am Even the Asians are struggling:

Japan haven't done as well as a fair few others. South Korea losing control (albeit perhaps drawing it back in now) is more significant for me.
Tokyo and surrounding prefectures is about the size of London + Surrey, but has 3 times the population. Not easy keeping people apart.
True, but they've repeatedly had to go into lockdowns to do so. SK was on top of it extremely well without too much restriction after the initial, until this second wave seems to have hit them.
Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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Openside
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Actually hearing conditions in other countries may well quell the lockdown sceptics, unless you believe this is all some conspiracy to 'reset'
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fishfoodie
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4,085 died yesterday in US
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Saint
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fishfoodie wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:10 am 4,085 died yesterday in US
4,207 - 4,100 the day before. 279,000 new cases yesterday
I like neeps
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/322a ... 08b25a356d

It's quite amazing you get still get articles like this. Whilst you can assign an arbitrarily created and obviously flawed value to life and quality of life etc if you wanted to.
It's not possible in the time of a highly infectious respiratory virus. Suggesting using economics to decide on policy (a) assumes people act as rational economic actors which they don't! Especially in times of health crises which would reduce their economic production and so your unitary value is different in covid and non covid times and (b) you can't have fully operational hospitals with widespread covid incidents. Unless the strategy is barely admit any covid patients and make everyone else test negative before entering a hospital which isn't possible.

The critiques of lockdown remain poor. It's not a policy anyone wants or enjoyed but you have to start to show actual alternate ideas at some point.
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