The Official English Rugby Thread

[Niegs]

From Owen Slot on twitter:

Ollie Lawrence - 3 starts, 10 touches of the ball. Is this a lesson in how not to develop a player: pick him, don't use him, drop him.

[Margin__Walker]

TBF the Italy game is the worst possible game to come after that performance.

Put in a dominant performance against Italy and we are back on track...

Feel a bit for Lawrence. Three games, ten touches of the ball and gone. Always feel like Ford, Farrell, Slade badly lacks a strike runner.

Would rather not see a lock at 6 again, or another undercooked Sarries player fast tracked in at LH. LCD getting the nod is at least one positive.

[sockwithaticket]

Mostly as expected, sadly.

Positives:
- LCD starting. Certainly warranted.
- Ford restored to his rightful place

Negatives:
- Lawes in the back row (FUCKING WHY!? How are we still doing this with the plethora of actual back row talent available?)
- Ford being sandwiched between Youngs and Farrell still.
- Daly's deficiencies still not being enough to see him placed elsewhere.
- 6/2 bench split. Always makes me nervous, practically invite injuries in the backs.
- Ewels in the 23.
- Mako straight in after 0 game time to keep the quota of undercooked Saracens up. Sinckler too, to a lesser extent since he hasn't played in a month and a couple of his 4 appearances so far this season for Bristol were off the bench. Not exactly flush with match minutes.

Harsh to drop Lawrence in favour of fucking around with the back row. It's not his fault he barely did anything with Farrell refusing to pass him the ball.

[Raggs]

TBF the Italy game is the worst possible game to come after that performance.

Put in a dominant performance against Italy and we are back on track...

Feel a bit for Lawrence. Three games, ten touches of the ball and gone. Always feel like Ford, Farrell, Slade badly lacks a strike runner.

Would rather not see a lock at 6 again, or another undercooked Sarries player fast tracked in at LH. LCD getting the nod is at least one positive.

We're trying to get the sarries boys upto speed, I can understand that. The biggest issue for me is Lawes at 6, as usual really. And Ford, Farrell, Slade is a backline to kick the leather off the ball. Lineouts galore!

[JM2K6]

Mako is a bit freakish so I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't seem particularly rusty. But it's a pointed jab at the two youngsters that he's parachuted straight in off the back of zero matches for ages and recovering from an awkward injury.

Lawrence I was never convinced by but jesus there's simply no way to judge his performance. The one time he got the ball he suddenly looked dangerous!

[Paddington Bear]

No point getting worked up about Youngs starting, it’s priced in for 150 caps.

[Raggs]

Mako is a bit freakish so I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't seem particularly rusty. But it's a pointed jab at the two youngsters that he's parachuted straight in off the back of zero matches for ages and recovering from an awkward injury.

Lawrence I was never convinced by but jesus there's simply no way to judge his performance. The one time he got the ball he suddenly looked dangerous!

Genge had a really good game in my mind, worked extremely hard, back on his feet fast after every tackle.

[JM2K6]

Mako is a bit freakish so I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't seem particularly rusty. But it's a pointed jab at the two youngsters that he's parachuted straight in off the back of zero matches for ages and recovering from an awkward injury.

Lawrence I was never convinced by but jesus there's simply no way to judge his performance. The one time he got the ball he suddenly looked dangerous!

Genge had a really good game in my mind, worked extremely hard, back on his feet fast after every tackle.

He's copped a load of flak. Didn't scrummage well. Barely carried (but we all know a big part of that is the kicking game). Made a heap of tackles though. I'll be honest, I didn't really notice him and at least some part of the criticism he's getting seems to be from people who dislike him personally.

[Raggs]

Mako is a bit freakish so I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't seem particularly rusty. But it's a pointed jab at the two youngsters that he's parachuted straight in off the back of zero matches for ages and recovering from an awkward injury.

Lawrence I was never convinced by but jesus there's simply no way to judge his performance. The one time he got the ball he suddenly looked dangerous!

Genge had a really good game in my mind, worked extremely hard, back on his feet fast after every tackle.

He's copped a load of flak. Didn't scrummage well. Barely carried (but we all know a big part of that is the kicking game). Made a heap of tackles though. I'll be honest, I didn't really notice him and at least some part of the criticism he's getting seems to be from people who dislike him personally.

I rewatched the first half, and a chunk of the second, he was one of the players that caught the eye, along with Curry and Wilson, working hard.

[JM2K6]

Rather you than me! Wilson coming off instead of Billy felt weird too.

[Paddington Bear]

Mako is a bit freakish so I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't seem particularly rusty. But it's a pointed jab at the two youngsters that he's parachuted straight in off the back of zero matches for ages and recovering from an awkward injury.

Lawrence I was never convinced by but jesus there's simply no way to judge his performance. The one time he got the ball he suddenly looked dangerous!

Genge had a really good game in my mind, worked extremely hard, back on his feet fast after every tackle.

He was beaten at the scrum, we almost never win from there

[Raggs]

Mako is a bit freakish so I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't seem particularly rusty. But it's a pointed jab at the two youngsters that he's parachuted straight in off the back of zero matches for ages and recovering from an awkward injury.

Lawrence I was never convinced by but jesus there's simply no way to judge his performance. The one time he got the ball he suddenly looked dangerous!

Genge had a really good game in my mind, worked extremely hard, back on his feet fast after every tackle.

He was beaten at the scrum, we almost never win from there

The scrum was a mess. I much prefer the Barnes approach there, where if it goes down because they're playing silly buggers, make them play it.

[JM2K6]

The good news is Mako is a world class scrummager

[PCPhil]

Who coined the word 'Finishers'?

The idea that unless one team is totally dominant we can all have a good arm wrestle for most of the match and then we put on the finishers to clean up.

[SaintK]

From Owen Slot on twitter:

Ollie Lawrence - 3 starts, 10 touches of the ball. Is this a lesson in how not to develop a player: pick him, don't use him, drop him.

Cuntish man management

[Hal Jordan]

Who coined the word 'Finishers'?

The idea that unless one team is totally dominant we can all have a good arm wrestle for most of the match and then we put on the finishers to clean up.

Either Jones or some marketing cunt.

[Kawazaki]

From Owen Slot on twitter:

Ollie Lawrence - 3 starts, 10 touches of the ball. Is this a lesson in how not to develop a player: pick him, don't use him, drop him.

Cuntish man management

Jones was a good coach once. But that was a long time ago. He's believed his own hype, lost what little humility he ever had years ago and has become an ego-maniac. Don't forget, his record in finals as the coaching number one is very poor. This is something that largely gets forgotten.

[Ovals]

With all the talent we have at Flanker, he's put a Lock in there again Meanwhile the Premiership player of the year sits it out on the bench.

Makes you wonder how badly Billy and Daly have to be to be dropped - they seem to have joined Farrell and Youngs amongst the untouchables.

[Oxbow]

As a Saints fan I love Courtney Lawes, and not just in a platonic way, but he's not a fucking international 6, particularly when we have more talent in the back row than we've had for ages. And as expected, new kid/fringe older player dropped, Farrell shunted out to 12, the other hapless stooges hold onto their places. The only positive is LCD starting. Still, put 40+ points on Italy and it'll all be rosy again.

[JM2K6]

From Owen Slot on twitter:

Cuntish man management

Jones was a good coach once. But that was a long time ago. He's believed his own hype, lost what little humility he ever had years ago and has become an ego-maniac. Don't forget, his record in finals as the coaching number one is very poor. This is something that largely gets forgotten.

I feel like you're cherry picking quite impressively there. I know you're a big fan of Woodward's, so you must be very impressed with his record in finals...?

[sockwithaticket]

The list of coaches who even reach finals is pretty short, those who win them shorter still. Getting there and losing them isn't the strongest stick with which to beat Eddie.

[Kawazaki]

Cuntish man management

Jones was a good coach once. But that was a long time ago. He's believed his own hype, lost what little humility he ever had years ago and has become an ego-maniac. Don't forget, his record in finals as the coaching number one is very poor. This is something that largely gets forgotten.

I feel like you're cherry picking quite impressively there. I know you're a big fan of Woodward's, so you must be very impressed with his record in finals...?

List the finals Jones has won as head coach.

My Woodward seethe is more to do with my very expensive jolly to New Zealand in 2005, however, it's still easy to forget the three 5/6 Nations trophies that Woodward butchered as you've just demonstrated when reminiscing.

[Kawazaki]

The list of coaches who even reach finals is pretty short, those who win them shorter still. Getting there and losing them isn't the strongest stick with which to beat Eddie.

You two make quite a reacharound tag-team now. Quaint.

[Niegs]

From Owen Slot on twitter:

Ollie Lawrence - 3 starts, 10 touches of the ball. Is this a lesson in how not to develop a player: pick him, don't use him, drop him.

Cuntish man management

Don't disagree on the 'management' side of things, but I wonder a) how many touches any NH centre gets and b) how many metres they carry (or are they just shoveling to the winger?) Forward pods live in the space they once occupied.

[JM2K6]

Jones was a good coach once. But that was a long time ago. He's believed his own hype, lost what little humility he ever had years ago and has become an ego-maniac. Don't forget, his record in finals as the coaching number one is very poor. This is something that largely gets forgotten.

I feel like you're cherry picking quite impressively there. I know you're a big fan of Woodward's, so you must be very impressed with his record in finals...?

List the finals Jones has won as head coach.

My Woodward seethe is more to do with my very expensive jolly to New Zealand in 2005, however, it's still easy to forget the three 5/6 Nations trophies that Woodward butchered as you've just demonstrated when reminiscing.

The 5/6N doesn't have finals though?

I'm not sure you can have it both ways: either Woodward's single appearance, single victory in the only final he's gotten his team into is a great record, or Eddie's Grand Slam and 6N trophies hold up well alongside his appearances in RWC finals.

My personal opinion is that trophies count, and he's won plenty; getting teams to finals and losing in the final is good or bad depending on whether they came up against superior opposition or not and what the realistic expectations are for that side. Eddie's RWC final loss is a blow but jesus, we hockeyed everyone else we came up against.

Eddie's record is:

Brumbies: one final win, one final loss
Suntory: ARFC winners once, runner up once; Top League winners once, runner-up once
Japan: 5N/ARC: winners 4 times; Pacific Nations Cup winners once
Oz: RWC final loss, 3N winners once, runners-up 3 times (in a 3-horse race...), Bledisloe Cup twice
England: 6N winners 3 times, runners-up once, Grand Slam winners once, Autumn Nations Cup once (and only), RWC final loss

Is that a record to complain about? I don't think so. To be clear, we're all unhappy with his current approach and the direction the team is going in both personnel and tactics, but that doesn't mean rewriting an impressive coaching career.

[Niegs]

Who coined the word 'Finishers'?

The idea that unless one team is totally dominant we can all have a good arm wrestle for most of the match and then we put on the finishers to clean up.

Either Jones or some marketing cunt.

Like a lot of phrases Eddie gets credit/stick for in social media, he's pinched it from someone else... seems Cheika was using it back in 2015, at least.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... ix-nations

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-rugb ... IW20150808

[Ovals]

The list of coaches who even reach finals is pretty short, those who win them shorter still. Getting there and losing them isn't the strongest stick with which to beat Eddie.

You two make quite a reacharound tag-team now. Quaint.

Don't use that stupid comeback unless you want to sound like a member of the Swarm

[Madness]

Mostly as expected, sadly.

Positives:
- LCD starting. Certainly warranted.
- Ford restored to his rightful place

Negatives:
- Lawes in the back row (FUCKING WHY!? How are we still doing this with the plethora of actual back row talent available?) why just why??
- Ford being sandwiched between Youngs and Farrell still.
- Daly's deficiencies still not being enough to see him placed elsewhere.
- 6/2 bench split. Always makes me nervous, practically invite injuries in the backs.
- Ewels in the 23.
- Mako straight in after 0 game time to keep the quota of undercooked Saracens up. Sinckler too, to a lesser extent since he hasn't played in a month and a couple of his 4 appearances so far this season for Bristol were off the bench. Not exactly flush with match minutes.

Harsh to drop Lawrence in favour of fucking around with the back row. It's not his fault he barely did anything with Farrell refusing to pass him the ball.

Agree with most of that, I thought the lock in the backrow had gone away after getting completely outplayed in Paris last year. Its Italy FFS and I understand he needs to play some players into form and match fitness but Billy seems to far off not to bother. My 23 from the present squad would be

Mako
LCD
Stuart
Lawes
Itoje
Willis
Curry
Earls
Robson
Ford
Daly
Farrell
Lawrence
May
Malins

Genge, George, Sinks, Hill, Willis, Randall, Slade, Watson


Rest/drop - Billy, not close to international level at the moment, Youngs, know what he can do, see if Robson is better trusted to start and introduce (cap trap) Randall, Sinks is better impact player than Stuart, WIllis in for a fast balanced back row, no decent 12 in the squad so no real options to pick except Farrell who is normally better for England at 12, Daly better winger than fullback and Malins given a start.

[Woddy]

Mostly as expected, sadly.

Positives:
- LCD starting. Certainly warranted.
- Ford restored to his rightful place

Negatives:
- Lawes in the back row (FUCKING WHY!? How are we still doing this with the plethora of actual back row talent available?) why just why??
- Ford being sandwiched between Youngs and Farrell still.
- Daly's deficiencies still not being enough to see him placed elsewhere.
- 6/2 bench split. Always makes me nervous, practically invite injuries in the backs.
- Ewels in the 23.
- Mako straight in after 0 game time to keep the quota of undercooked Saracens up. Sinckler too, to a lesser extent since he hasn't played in a month and a couple of his 4 appearances so far this season for Bristol were off the bench. Not exactly flush with match minutes.

Harsh to drop Lawrence in favour of fucking around with the back row. It's not his fault he barely did anything with Farrell refusing to pass him the ball.

Agree with most of that, I thought the lock in the backrow had gone away after getting completely outplayed in Paris last year. Its Italy FFS and I understand he needs to play some players into form and match fitness but Billy seems to far off not to bother. My 23 from the present squad would be

Mako
LCD
Stuart
Lawes
Itoje
Willis
Curry
Earls
Robson
Ford
Daly
Farrell
Lawrence
May
Malins

Genge, George, Sinks, Hill, Willis, Randall, Slade, Watson


Rest/drop - Billy, not close to international level at the moment, Youngs, know what he can do, see if Robson is better trusted to start and introduce (cap trap) Randall, Sinks is better impact player than Stuart, WIllis in for a fast balanced back row, no decent 12 in the squad so no real options to pick except Farrell who is normally better for England at 12, Daly better winger than fullback and Malins given a start.

Like the idea of bringing Willis Jnr into the squad! Are you a Wasps fan as well?

[JM2K6]

I'm assuming it's just an oversight. Suggesting Willis Jr ahead of Simmonds or Dombrandt would be crazier than suggesting George Ford at 12.

[Hal Jordan]

12 Tindall
13 JSD

Those were the days.

[Woddy]

JM - I got that, was ragging him for his mistake in duplicating.

However, in talking about brothers, how's the other Curry playing? Still feel rather sorry for him, given that he was the one originally called up before getting injured. Must hurt a little seeing his brother take his place and do so well.

[JM2K6]

JM - I got that, was ragging him for his mistake in duplicating.

However, in talking about brothers, how's the other Curry playing? Still feel rather sorry for him, given that he was the one originally called up before getting injured. Must hurt a little seeing his brother take his place and do so well.

Injured, I believe.

[Margin__Walker]

Bath especially could have done without this (copping bans for breaching Covid protocols)

[sockwithaticket]

That leaves Wasps with 3 available back rowers as far as I'm aware (unless Young's injury was just a one weel job): Shields, Wills jr. and Morris.

[Oxbow]

Saints v Newcastle is off, COVID up north.

[Margin__Walker]

Is that two or three Covid wins for Saints now?

[Oxbow]

Two wins and a loss I think, it's difficult to keep track.

[Margin__Walker]

Yep, sound about right. Hopefully Newcastle aren't impacted for more than a week.

[Raggs]

10 points from 3 games then. Keep that going and Play offs are easily in reach over a season.