Owens would have disallowed May's acrobat try

[Torquemada 1420]

If we go back to what Owens said

“Diving for the line to score a try is allowed. Jumping in the air to avoid a tackle is not. May jumps up to avoid tackle first which is not diving for the line,”

Then we have some basis of application although it's fraught with interpretation.

[Lobby]

So... is the answer never?

Clearly the players don't think it's illegal to attempt to tackle someone in the air when they're trying to score. I've never seen a player penalised for it. Is this an invented problem? Perhaps it's the understanding that tackles in the air lead to players being tipped that's the issue here - and players diving for the line are tipping themselves.

Anyway, I'm happy to park this until the point a player gets penalised for tackling someone who's trying to score while airborne. Until then I don't think we actually have a problem.

You tell me. I don't know and suspect it's now one of those areas where what you get from refs will vary widely
- May scoring at Twickers in game against minnow where the effort won't affect the outcome: all refs will let it stand
- May scoring at Eden Park in last minute of RWC final v the ABs to push Eng into the lead: good luck

Actually, I have seen a player penalised for it and was trying to think what the incident was before quoting it. Player was in the air and was taken out by the tackler and pen try was awarded and tackler yellowed for no arms. Defo involved a Fre side but cannot recall if intl, HEC or T14 (pretty sure it wasn't T14). Will probably come to me in my sleep.

Liam Williams conceded a penalty try for Wales by shoulder-charging a diving winger into touch. I can't remember if the winger was airborne at the time, but the reason a penalty was awarded (as in your example) was a no-arms tackle rather than tackling someone in the air.

[JM2K6]

So... is the answer never?

Clearly the players don't think it's illegal to attempt to tackle someone in the air when they're trying to score. I've never seen a player penalised for it. Is this an invented problem? Perhaps it's the understanding that tackles in the air lead to players being tipped that's the issue here - and players diving for the line are tipping themselves.

Anyway, I'm happy to park this until the point a player gets penalised for tackling someone who's trying to score while airborne. Until then I don't think we actually have a problem.

You tell me. I don't know and suspect it's now one of those areas where what you get from refs will vary widely
- May scoring at Twickers in game against minnow where the effort won't affect the outcome: all refs will let it stand
- May scoring at Eden Park in last minute of RWC final v the ABs to push Eng into the lead: good luck

Actually, I have seen a player penalised for it and was trying to think what the incident was before quoting it. Player was in the air and was taken out by the tackler and pen try was awarded and tackler yellowed for no arms. Defo involved a Fre side but cannot recall if intl, HEC or T14 (pretty sure it wasn't T14). Will probably come to me in my sleep.

So... you've seen a player penalised for a shoulder charge? :)

[Sandstorm]

May scoring at Eden Park in last minute of RWC final v the ABs to push Eng into the lead: good luck

*puke*

[Torquemada 1420]

So... you've seen a player penalised for a shoulder charge? :)

Yes! Sure it was awarded as shoulder charge. But that's part of the point from earlier: pretty much impossible to wrap arms in that situation.

[JM2K6]

So... you've seen a player penalised for a shoulder charge? :)

Yes! Sure it was awarded as shoulder charge. But that's part of the point from earlier: pretty much impossible to wrap arms in that situation.

I don't see how. Go for the player with hands and arms rather than a braced shoulder (which is what those incidents get penalised for). Any vaguely decent attempt to wrap will be fine with the officials.

Just not Toeava-on-Hape shoulder charges.

[Torquemada 1420]

So... you've seen a player penalised for a shoulder charge? :)

Yes! Sure it was awarded as shoulder charge. But that's part of the point from earlier: pretty much impossible to wrap arms in that situation.

I don't see how. Go for the player with hands and arms rather than a braced shoulder (which is what those incidents get penalised for). Any vaguely decent attempt to wrap will be fine with the officials.

Just not Toeava-on-Hape shoulder charges.

After I posted I realised it was penalised as a push and not no arms. Which seems more likely in that scenario. If I can remember it and then find a youtube, will link it.

[Margin__Walker]

Here's James Stokes about to score for LI the other day. Penny even made contact with him in the air. No drama though

[Mahoney]

It would be good for World Rugby to make a call on this one way or the other before a referee makes it on the spot. And if they decide that what May did is OK they should clarify that it is legal to tackle a player as they do it - it really would be a bit much to make it impossible to tackle a player who did that.

(For the old timers, it reminds me a bit of Stimpson being tackled when he wasn't holding the ball against SA in 2000 - either he was in possession, in which case it was OK to tackle him, or he wasn't, in which case he'd knocked on, but it seemed quite unfair to suggest he should have been left alone to recover the ball and score. Likewise May's actions are either legal, in which case it must be OK to tackle him, or illegal, in which case he should be penalised.)

[Big D]

The difficulty is what is allowed in open play v in the act of scoring, what the position of the defender is, what the body position of the attacker is etc.

You could perhaps tweek the law to say a scoring player must be no higher than approximately waist high or corner flag height and must be chest on to the ground in the dive. But even that allows for interpretation which leaves refs potentially exposed.

For me the test would be, "would I penalise the defender if he tackles him". With the May one, I can see the potential for a dangerous situation due to his body shape but don't think I would bring myself to penalise him if the ref.

[C69]

Here's James Stokes about to score for LI the other day. Penny even made contact with him in the air. No drama though

Looks like a dive rather than a Jump tbh

[GogLais]

Here's James Stokes about to score for LI the other day. Penny even made contact with him in the air. No drama though

Looks like a dive rather than a Jump tbh

Indeed. He's horizontal, May was upright(ish).

[JM2K6]

But he's clearly gone airborne and gone over a tackle, so what difference does it make?

[C69]

[mos_eisely_]

Darcy Graham doing similar for Edinburgh

[FalconJock]

But he's clearly gone airborne and gone over a tackle, so what difference does it make?

He was in the air before the tackler was committed to it, May went over the tackle, fundamentally there is a difference however the referee is the sole authority on fact and time on the field (unless your Owens and then you just make it up as you go along)

[Niegs]

What about when a fat guy does it?

[Trapper]

It just doesn’t look right, no try, penalty to Italy.

[Biffer]

The Darcy Graham one is different, he had to jump to collect the bouncing ball.

Does everyone actually understand why this is dangerous, yeah? If you jump you’re raising your knees to where a tacklers head is likely to be.

[Insane_Homer]

Darcy Graham doing similar for Edinburgh

Not even remotely 'similar', he's jumping to catch the ball, not avoid the tackler.

[Torquemada 1420]

It would be good for World Rugby to make a call on this one way or the other before a referee makes it on the spot. And if they decide that what May did is OK they should clarify that it is legal to tackle a player as they do it - it really would be a bit much to make it impossible to tackle a player who did that.

(For the old timers, it reminds me a bit of Stimpson being tackled when he wasn't holding the ball against SA in 2000 - either he was in possession, in which case it was OK to tackle him, or he wasn't, in which case he'd knocked on, but it seemed quite unfair to suggest he should have been left alone to recover the ball and score. Likewise May's actions are either legal, in which case it must be OK to tackle him, or illegal, in which case he should be penalised.)

Which brings up another anomaly. When players chase back for a kick through and the defender falls upon the ball. Frequently, an attacker is penalised for not allowing the defender to stand up. But there is no incentive for the defender to do so. He wants to stall for as long as possible to allow any support to arrive.

[Lobby]

It would be good for World Rugby to make a call on this one way or the other before a referee makes it on the spot. And if they decide that what May did is OK they should clarify that it is legal to tackle a player as they do it - it really would be a bit much to make it impossible to tackle a player who did that.

(For the old timers, it reminds me a bit of Stimpson being tackled when he wasn't holding the ball against SA in 2000 - either he was in possession, in which case it was OK to tackle him, or he wasn't, in which case he'd knocked on, but it seemed quite unfair to suggest he should have been left alone to recover the ball and score. Likewise May's actions are either legal, in which case it must be OK to tackle him, or illegal, in which case he should be penalised.)

Which brings up another anomaly. When players chase back for a kick through and the defender falls upon the ball. Frequently, an attacker is penalised for not allowing the defender to stand up. But there is no incentive for the defender to do so. He wants to stall for as long as possible to allow any support to arrive.

If the defending player is lying on the floor with the ball, it should be fine for the attacking player to take the ball from them while remaining on their feet. What they can't do is simply flop over them to prevent them getting up or releasing the ball. It is the latter that is, or should be, penalised (although in my experience increasingly rarely in recent times).

[Biffer]

It would be good for World Rugby to make a call on this one way or the other before a referee makes it on the spot. And if they decide that what May did is OK they should clarify that it is legal to tackle a player as they do it - it really would be a bit much to make it impossible to tackle a player who did that.

(For the old timers, it reminds me a bit of Stimpson being tackled when he wasn't holding the ball against SA in 2000 - either he was in possession, in which case it was OK to tackle him, or he wasn't, in which case he'd knocked on, but it seemed quite unfair to suggest he should have been left alone to recover the ball and score. Likewise May's actions are either legal, in which case it must be OK to tackle him, or illegal, in which case he should be penalised.)

Which brings up another anomaly. When players chase back for a kick through and the defender falls upon the ball. Frequently, an attacker is penalised for not allowing the defender to stand up. But there is no incentive for the defender to do so. He wants to stall for as long as possible to allow any support to arrive.

All you have to do is briefly grasp the shirt so he’s considered as tackled and on the ground, then release and go straight for the ball.

[Grandpa]

If the Italian tackler had managed to tackle May around his ankles when he jumped... and had caused May to flip over (A tip tackle?), losing the ball in the process... would the Italian tackler be sent off for a tip tackle.. and a penalty try given?

A win win for May really...

[Insane_Homer]

Which brings up another anomaly. When players chase back for a kick through and the defender falls upon the ball. Frequently, an attacker is penalised for not allowing the defender to stand up. But there is no incentive for the defender to do so. He wants to stall for as long as possible to allow any support to arrive.

Player on the floor has no rights to the ball. Arriving players, who stay on their feet and attempt to play the ball have all the rights to the ball. So player on the floor can't play the ball or prevent the person who's on his feet from playing the ball and must release it immediately or be penalised.

[Mahoney]

I wonder whether we could have a law that you can't stand up while holding the ball? If you're on the ground you've got to let go of it, and get back on your feet before you pick it up again.

Would remove the held / not held thing which is such a judgement call - wouldn't matter, knee down, got to let go of the ball.

[Mahoney]

Obvious side effect - more kicking, particularly grubbers, as they become much harder to defend.

[GogLais]

But he's clearly gone airborne and gone over a tackle, so what difference does it make?

If a player dives there's a fairly low risk of harm unless the tackler makes a mess of it. A May type vault/hurdle/whatever it's called creates a possibility that the attacker will land with all his weight on the defender if it goes wrong. It isn't feasible to draft a law that categorises these dives/jumps so the game has to fall back on reckless and dangerous. Was May's reckless and dangerous - I'm not sure but fortunately it doesn't matter what I think.

[JM2K6]

But he's clearly gone airborne and gone over a tackle, so what difference does it make?

If a player dives there's a fairly low risk of harm unless the tackler makes a mess of it. A May type vault/hurdle/whatever it's called creates a possibility that the attacker will land with all his weight on the defender if it goes wrong. It isn't feasible to draft a law that categorises these dives/jumps so the game has to fall back on reckless and dangerous. Was May's reckless and dangerous - I'm not sure but fortunately it doesn't matter what I think.

No, that's silly. Forward momentum vs a completely different angle - May would not have landed on the defender. Unless you mean players trying to hurdle defenders in front of them, which, sure, I can see that (but not what happened here or in the other dive).

It's a possible danger to May himself, sure.

[sockwithaticket]

If the Italian tackler had managed to tackle May around his ankles when he jumped... and had caused May to flip over (A tip tackle?), losing the ball in the process... would the Italian tackler be sent off for a tip tackle.. and a penalty try given?

A win win for May really...

That's not even close to what constitutes a tip tackle, so no.

[GogLais]

But he's clearly gone airborne and gone over a tackle, so what difference does it make?

If a player dives there's a fairly low risk of harm unless the tackler makes a mess of it. A May type vault/hurdle/whatever it's called creates a possibility that the attacker will land with all his weight on the defender if it goes wrong. It isn't feasible to draft a law that categorises these dives/jumps so the game has to fall back on reckless and dangerous. Was May's reckless and dangerous - I'm not sure but fortunately it doesn't matter what I think.

No, that's silly. Forward momentum vs a completely different angle - May would not have landed on the defender. Unless you mean players trying to hurdle defenders in front of them, which, sure, I can see that (but not what happened here or in the other dive).

It's a possible danger to May himself, sure.

I take your point but it's not an exercise in a physics lab - that's why I said if it goes wrong.

[JM2K6]

If a player dives there's a fairly low risk of harm unless the tackler makes a mess of it. A May type vault/hurdle/whatever it's called creates a possibility that the attacker will land with all his weight on the defender if it goes wrong. It isn't feasible to draft a law that categorises these dives/jumps so the game has to fall back on reckless and dangerous. Was May's reckless and dangerous - I'm not sure but fortunately it doesn't matter what I think.

No, that's silly. Forward momentum vs a completely different angle - May would not have landed on the defender. Unless you mean players trying to hurdle defenders in front of them, which, sure, I can see that (but not what happened here or in the other dive).

It's a possible danger to May himself, sure.

I take your point but it's not an exercise in a physics lab - that's why I said if it goes wrong.

OK but physics works the same way inside and out of the lab (unless you're Semi Radradra)

I can accept the argument that it could cause May some damage as being reason to legislate against this. Just not something that has a vanishingly small probability of occurring.

[Woddy]

Which brings up another anomaly. When players chase back for a kick through and the defender falls upon the ball. Frequently, an attacker is penalised for not allowing the defender to stand up. But there is no incentive for the defender to do so. He wants to stall for as long as possible to allow any support to arrive.

Player on the floor has no rights to the ball. Arriving players, who stay on their feet and attempt to play the ball have all the rights to the ball. So player on the floor can't play the ball or prevent the person who's on his feet from playing the ball and must release it immediately or be penalised.

Player who drops on the ball must be allowed the chance to get back up. As soon as he starts to do so, you can of course tackle him/strip the ball etc.

[Woddy]

If the Italian tackler had managed to tackle May around his ankles when he jumped... and had caused May to flip over (A tip tackle?), losing the ball in the process... would the Italian tackler be sent off for a tip tackle.. and a penalty try given?

A win win for May really...

Something similar happened to Genge vs Scotland: he went very low for a chop-tackle (which I'm not a fan of generally), with his arms swinging round, but the Scot's legs bounced so quickly off his upper arm/shoulder that he was sent spinning over the top and Genge was pinged for a no-arms tackle. Even though his arms were genuinely coming through, in real time it did look like that.

[Woddy]

What would be the decision if an attacker, just out from the try-line, is faced with a low-tackling defender and executes one of those two-footed jump-somersaults you see in gymnastics, football celebrations and sometimes (in order to get a touchdown) in NFL, and which easily clears the defender so that there is no contact or even danger of it? Assume that there's no one in the in-goal area to be landed on either...

[Grandpa]

If the Italian tackler had managed to tackle May around his ankles when he jumped... and had caused May to flip over (A tip tackle?), losing the ball in the process... would the Italian tackler be sent off for a tip tackle.. and a penalty try given?

A win win for May really...

That's not even close to what constitutes a tip tackle, so no.

Well until you see it happen you don't know what it will look like. I can visualise it quite easily... May being tackled around his ankles and ending up losing ball while both legs shoot in the air from the impact of the tackle on his feet... and he ends up landing on his head...

The imagination.. it's a mighty fine thing...

[Grandpa]

If the Italian tackler had managed to tackle May around his ankles when he jumped... and had caused May to flip over (A tip tackle?), losing the ball in the process... would the Italian tackler be sent off for a tip tackle.. and a penalty try given?

A win win for May really...

Something similar happened to Genge vs Scotland: he went very low for a chop-tackle (which I'm not a fan of generally), with his arms swinging round, but the Scot's legs bounced so quickly off his upper arm/shoulder that he was sent spinning over the top and Genge was pinged for a no-arms tackle. Even though his arms were genuinely coming through, in real time it did look like that.

Sometimes you wonder if refs have ever made a tackle in their life...

[JM2K6]

If the Italian tackler had managed to tackle May around his ankles when he jumped... and had caused May to flip over (A tip tackle?), losing the ball in the process... would the Italian tackler be sent off for a tip tackle.. and a penalty try given?

A win win for May really...

That's not even close to what constitutes a tip tackle, so no.

Well until you see it happen you don't know what it will look like. I can visualise it quite easily... May being tackled around his ankles and ending up losing ball while both legs shoot in the air from the impact of the tackle on his feet... and he ends up landing on his head...

The imagination.. it's a mighty fine thing...

This is valid. I think we'll probably cross that bridge when we come to it, right?

[Grandpa]

That's not even close to what constitutes a tip tackle, so no.

Well until you see it happen you don't know what it will look like. I can visualise it quite easily... May being tackled around his ankles and ending up losing ball while both legs shoot in the air from the impact of the tackle on his feet... and he ends up landing on his head...

The imagination.. it's a mighty fine thing...

This is valid. I think we'll probably cross that bridge when we come to it, right?

Well we've come to a partially built bridge now... trouble is... do we wait to walk on dodgy bridge and risk serious injury... or pre-empt it and change (or enforce) the laws now...

[JM2K6]

Well until you see it happen you don't know what it will look like. I can visualise it quite easily... May being tackled around his ankles and ending up losing ball while both legs shoot in the air from the impact of the tackle on his feet... and he ends up landing on his head...

The imagination.. it's a mighty fine thing...

This is valid. I think we'll probably cross that bridge when we come to it, right?

Well we've come to a partially built bridge now... trouble is... do we wait to walk on dodgy bridge and risk serious injury... or pre-empt it and change (or enforce) the laws now...

Not sure about changing how refereeing is done based on a single event where nothing bad happened. Particularly as trying to legislate for this without changing "spectacular dives for the line" might be an awkward task.