The Official English Rugby Thread

[JM2K6]

Marchant isn't good at defending? When did that happen?

A Scottish player sidestepped him I think.

Tuilagi makes pretty much everyone outside him look bad, mind. Loves this sort of thing:



and everybody knows it. It's kinda mad that we're still considering him our best option given he's a defensive liability and a fitness liability.

[JM2K6]

Would we consider George, Genge, and Stuart as particularly slow in getting into position? Stuart is meh either way but George is a Lions Test hooker with the all-action performances to back it up and Genge motors around the park with a huge enthusiasm for defence. None of them would be the fastest but I can't imagine that Genge and George would be considered problematic.

(Yes, I know I'm taking dpedin seriously again, but it's such a specific point that I can't decide if it's just dpedin stuff or if there's actually some truth to it that I've missed)


No question it's likely to be a smooth possession machine vs a kicking machine, though. Sadly.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

There have been times when Genge hasn't been that fast on reloading. BUT, he shows with more problems in that area when he's the only carrier who's fatigued from scrumming and carrying, or when he's asked to play 15 and launch the counterattacks in addition to scrumming. George varies, a quality player but he hasn't always rocked up in ideal shape, presently I don't see issues with his fitness bar he keeps being asked to play 75-80 minutes, and that's wrong. Stuart hasn't found his feet as a test starter, yet, he looks much better coming off the bench, so hopefully he'll be up to speed soon on the physical and mental front

[Hal Jordan]

I think the injuries are catching up with George. He's 32, which isn't old for a hooker at all, but it seems that he's lost a step and some of his brio.

Although again that might be due to the dogshit one out static pods we play.

[dpedin]

Marchant isn't good at defending? When did that happen?

When he is playing at 13 with Tuilagi at 12! Perhaps it's because he is having to cover for Tuliagi when he gets posted missing in midfield but either way it is not a particularly good defensive midfield, much better with Lawerence at 12. I expect Ireland will expose the gaps in midfield defence as the game goes on.

[Raggs]

Marchant isn't good at defending? When did that happen?

When he is playing at 13 with Tuilagi at 12! Perhaps it's because he is having to cover for Tuliagi when he gets posted missing in midfield but either way it is not a particularly good defensive midfield, much better with Lawerence at 12. I expect Ireland will expose the gaps in midfield defence as the game goes on.

Ireland are a great team to play to find out the system issues you have. They can play nice rugby, but their basics are so thorough that if you have any exploitable issue in your normal setup. There's no way to easily defend the sort of attacks that France can pull out at times, certainly I'd think you'd struggle to regularly train for it. But Irelands predictable and repeated carries, quick planned rucks, move the ball attack places a ton of stress on a normal defence.

[Lobby]

Marchant isn't good at defending? When did that happen?

When he is playing at 13 with Tuilagi at 12! Perhaps it's because he is having to cover for Tuliagi when he gets posted missing in midfield but either way it is not a particularly good defensive midfield, much better with Lawerence at 12. I expect Ireland will expose the gaps in midfield defence as the game goes on.

Marchant and Tuilagi have never played 12 and 13 together you absolute spoofer. The few times they have appeared in the same team, Marchant has generally come on as a substitute for Tuilagi.

[SaintK]

Marchant isn't good at defending? When did that happen?

When he is playing at 13 with Tuilagi at 12! Perhaps it's because he is having to cover for Tuliagi when he gets posted missing in midfield but either way it is not a particularly good defensive midfield, much better with Lawerence at 12. I expect Ireland will expose the gaps in midfield defence as the game goes on.

Marchant and Tuilagi have never played 12 and 13 together you absolute spoofer. The few times they have appeared in the same team, Marchant has generally come on as a substitute for Tuilagi.

Quite, well said

[Paddington Bear]

Yeah?

He has a habit of being scapegoated for games that are categorically not on him - e.g. the world cup final - and he's suffered a bit from playing under coaches who are convinced that kicking the fucking ball away repeatedly is a great tactic when you're losing the breakdown battle. But I can't think of too many matches where I could pin the blame on Ford. He doesn't seem to have the same risk of being actually quite shit on the day that a fair few others do.

"Going missing" is a really tough one to define of course so perhaps I've misunderstood - certainly I think someone like Finn Russell would retain the ability to dramatically influence a game no matter how the rest of the team is performing (but not always positively)

England have three fly halves in the squad. When they lose with two of them at the helm, they’re being scapegoated, it’s the system etc. When they lose with the other at the helm it’s all his fault. Heads I win, tails you lose

I was hoping for specifics, because that's kind of my point here. We can all point to games where some players like Ben Youngs have been absolutely appalling - when passes have been dreadful, kicks have been dreadful, he's dithered and cost us hugely. But Ford isn't someone who really produces error-strewn performances with bad decision making and bad execution. So it's instructive to know which games he's at fault for, because then you get into the thornier question of whether it's on him at all or whether it's the game plan at fault.

I realise you're tying this into the Farrell arguments, but I think it's important to note that a lot of the criticism of Farrell comes from his direct fuckups, be they poor execution or poor decision making. Ford isn't someone who would regularly take the wrong option, but Farrell has done on many occasions. Both of them aren't to blame for a tactic that involves booting the ball away as the primary method of dealing with the ball, but I've never seen Ford make the same mistakes Farrell makes in terms of when to kick and how well executed it is. Ford's a better passer in general, and he's certainly the more agile runner.

There's no question that Farrell gets unwarranted criticism that should be aimed at his 9, his forwards, or more appropriately, the moron who thinks that England must be told to kick the ball back to the opposition as often as possible. That actually makes it harder to criticise him for the things he does in an England shirt that are hair-pullingly frustrating, be it when he turns down a huge overlap to boot the ball away or fails to execute his skills or does something that make him look incredibly sub-par (which, obviously, he isn't!). Ford makes mistakes like any other player but I genuinely don't remember matches where the frustration at him was more than just frustration at the game plan. Which is why I was wanting specific examples. I mentioned the world cup final because he was Eddie's scapegoat and I can't think of many people who genuinely believe Ford was the problem there, given the high profile disasters from several key players.

Re: going missing - England losses with Ford at 10 have a tendency to be the kind of days where you can’t actually remember England having an attack when we get to full time. It’s happened plenty of times

Yes. Is that his fault or because he's the best in the world at a particular kicking game, so coaches base everything around that? I can think of plenty of examples of exactly what you're talking about - particularly the away matches. You may remember me talking about Eddie's plans for playing big teams away from home, how negative an approach we had where we essentially kicked away everything and soaked up pressure, but our defence wasn't good enough to soak up the pressure and we had no plan B for when we were conceding points and needed to play catchup rugby. I can't remember many examples of Ford's execution, decision making, or personal skills being the reason why England didn't do anything. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, of course.

It's a bit like the opening game of these warmups. Anyone who thinks Care and Smith "disappeared" would be kidding themselves. There's rarely been a clearer example of players playing to a very rigid game plan completely at odds with their skillset and natural approach to the game, doing a pretty good job of it, but the team obviously not being full of attacking brio as a result. But people who dislike them both were screaming about their performances in that game.

Smith does indeed have a decent number of caps already. And about the same number of different midfield and 8/9 combinations to go with it but it's entirely fair to question whether his game will ever translate to the international arena in any recognisable way, especially with a very conservative coaching setup. I don't think the Ford discussion is anything like that, and it makes a much easier comparison with Farrell.

Apologies for not responding, it’s a long post and I was at Lords’ yesterday and still out today. Hence a lack of specifics.

To address the general issues, yes I’m tying it to Faz for the simple reason this bored tends to resemble the Gordon Ramsay ‘oh dear oh dear gorgeous/you fucking donkey’ meme when it comes to England 10s, and seemingly does so without self awareness of doing so (I am a Faz fan but as you know am perfectly capable of criticising his poor performances, so I don’t feel a total hypocrite on this point).

All three options at 10 have been hamstrung by moronic gameplans, a 9 who has been past it since 2018, constant revolving centre partnerships, no international quality 8 and a team that just seems directionless. We are also a side that has wasted four years in an era where everyone else bar the Aussies and Welsh has not, so the lack of coherence is exacerbated by how well others are executing. Lancaster and Eddie got their reigns off to a start by beating average Scotland sides narrowly, Borthwick didn’t have that luxury as a more clinical Scotland turned us over, for example. It offers some excuse for Smith’s lack of output in an England shirt, but this applies just as fairly to Faz and Ford. So I can’t see how it exonerates one and not the other two.

For what it’s worth, and I’ve said this before, with what Borthwick seems to be attempting to do Ford ought to play 10 as we know he can execute the Leicester gameplan better than the other options. He’s a fine player, all three are. If we’re looking at playing that gameplan I honestly can’t see why we’re bothering with Smith at all, let him have a summer off and play his way with Quins. I suspect we’ll be in the market for a new coach come October and he may well decide to build his four year plan around Smith, and come up with a system to facilitate that.

[shaggy]

When he is playing at 13 with Tuilagi at 12! Perhaps it's because he is having to cover for Tuliagi when he gets posted missing in midfield but either way it is not a particularly good defensive midfield, much better with Lawerence at 12. I expect Ireland will expose the gaps in midfield defence as the game goes on.

Marchant and Tuilagi have never played 12 and 13 together you absolute spoofer. The few times they have appeared in the same team, Marchant has generally come on as a substitute for Tuilagi.

Quite, well said

This needs more air time.

[Torquemada 1420]

Marchant isn't good at defending? When did that happen?

When he is playing at 13 with Tuilagi at 12! Perhaps it's because he is having to cover for Tuliagi when he gets posted missing in midfield but either way it is not a particularly good defensive midfield, much better with Lawerence at 12. I expect Ireland will expose the gaps in midfield defence as the game goes on.

Ireland are a great team to play to find out the system issues you have. They can play nice rugby, but their basics are so thorough that if you have any exploitable issue in your normal setup. There's no way to easily defend the sort of attacks that France can pull out at times, certainly I'd think you'd struggle to regularly train for it. But Irelands predictable and repeated carries, quick planned rucks, move the ball attack places a ton of stress on a normal defence.

Good observation.

[dpedin]

When he is playing at 13 with Tuilagi at 12! Perhaps it's because he is having to cover for Tuliagi when he gets posted missing in midfield but either way it is not a particularly good defensive midfield, much better with Lawerence at 12. I expect Ireland will expose the gaps in midfield defence as the game goes on.

Ireland are a great team to play to find out the system issues you have. They can play nice rugby, but their basics are so thorough that if you have any exploitable issue in your normal setup. There's no way to easily defend the sort of attacks that France can pull out at times, certainly I'd think you'd struggle to regularly train for it. But Irelands predictable and repeated carries, quick planned rucks, move the ball attack places a ton of stress on a normal defence.

Good observation.

First try - as Zebo points out in commentary, England are too slow coming round the corner in defence, Stuart caught out flat footed in defence and O'Mahony trots through to feed Aki!
Second try - Ireland break England midfield defence, England rush out and lose shape in defence leaving huge gaps in behind, never recover their shape and Ringrose trots in off decent wide kick..

England kicking almost all their ball away, slow to get to the breakdown and slow recycling, about half the speed of Irelands. One man out rugby when they have penalty advantage. Ball hasn't got wide past Tuliagi yet, wingers need to get quicker ball. Luckily for them Ireland looking a bit rusty.

[tc27]

Have we gone into a RWC in worst shape than this?

2007 and 2011 were bad but this seems far worse

[Simian]

Do folk reckon you’re in worse or better shape than you would have been under Eddie J?

[sockwithaticket]

Do folk reckon you’re in worse or better shape than you would have been under Eddie J?

It's mental that this should even be a valid question, but Borthwick does seem to have managed to maintain England's downward spiral rather than doing anything about it.

[Lobby]

Have we gone into a RWC in worst shape than this?

2007 and 2011 were bad but this seems far worse

England were so bad at the 1987 RWC (losing badly to Wales at the QF stage) that the RFU were forced to concede that it might help to have a professional manager. On their return from the RWC, Geoff Cooke was appointed and he was to go on to lead one of England's most successful periods.

This is quite probably the worst England have been in the professional era. And apparently that was England's most 'experienced' team ever today, although I guess that's largely down to Ben Young's 500 caps.

[Lobby]

Do folk reckon you’re in worse or better shape than you would have been under Eddie J?

It's mental that this should even be a valid question, but Borthwick does seem to have managed to maintain England's downward spiral rather than doing anything about it.

Borthwick has taken Eddie's lack of any attacking strategy and added an enfeebled defence to provide total rugby cancer.

[Raggs]

Can we hope that Youngs puts in a red card effort next week? Didn't see all the first half, just patches, but whilst he's not slow to get the ball when he arrives to the breakdown, he constantly seems to be a second away from it when the ball is already available.

Billy is probably only ending up with a 2 week ban, so I can't see us replacing him (is that even an option?)

[JM2K6]

Ireland are a great team to play to find out the system issues you have. They can play nice rugby, but their basics are so thorough that if you have any exploitable issue in your normal setup. There's no way to easily defend the sort of attacks that France can pull out at times, certainly I'd think you'd struggle to regularly train for it. But Irelands predictable and repeated carries, quick planned rucks, move the ball attack places a ton of stress on a normal defence.

Good observation.

First try - as Zebo points out in commentary, England are too slow coming round the corner in defence, Stuart caught out flat footed in defence and O'Mahony trots through to feed Aki!
Second try - Ireland break England midfield defence, England rush out and lose shape in defence leaving huge gaps in behind, never recover their shape and Ringrose trots in off decent wide kick..

England kicking almost all their ball away, slow to get to the breakdown and slow recycling, about half the speed of Irelands. One man out rugby when they have penalty advantage. Ball hasn't got wide past Tuliagi yet, wingers need to get quicker ball. Luckily for them Ireland looking a bit rusty.

Stuart was in midfield, not getting up off the floor.

[JM2K6]

Can we hope that Youngs puts in a red card effort next week? Didn't see all the first half, just patches, but whilst he's not slow to get the ball when he arrives to the breakdown, he constantly seems to be a second away from it when the ball is already available.

Billy is probably only ending up with a 2 week ban, so I can't see us replacing him (is that even an option?)

Yeah, Youngs was appalling again. Can't kick the right distance. Can't pass. Creates nothing. Yet another pick on faith going badly wrong.

Can someone find Maro Itoje? We picked some bloke who jogs from breakdown to breakdown and watches as we get turned over.

[dpedin]

Good observation.

First try - as Zebo points out in commentary, England are too slow coming round the corner in defence, Stuart caught out flat footed in defence and O'Mahony trots through to feed Aki!
Second try - Ireland break England midfield defence, England rush out and lose shape in defence leaving huge gaps in behind, never recover their shape and Ringrose trots in off decent wide kick..

England kicking almost all their ball away, slow to get to the breakdown and slow recycling, about half the speed of Irelands. One man out rugby when they have penalty advantage. Ball hasn't got wide past Tuliagi yet, wingers need to get quicker ball. Luckily for them Ireland looking a bit rusty.

Stuart was in midfield, not getting up off the floor.

I didn't say he was! He was left exposed because his fellow forwards hadn't recovered and got back round the corner into the defensive line and as a result Stuart, to be fair, was having to cover a wider gap in line than he would have liked. Ireland spotted this and targeted him because of his lack of mobility and he was caught on his heels. Ireland were continually looking for and hitting the gaps in Englands defence close to the breakdown due to the slowness in English forwards resetting their lines. It seemed to work?

[JM2K6]

First try - as Zebo points out in commentary, England are too slow coming round the corner in defence, Stuart caught out flat footed in defence and O'Mahony trots through to feed Aki!
Second try - Ireland break England midfield defence, England rush out and lose shape in defence leaving huge gaps in behind, never recover their shape and Ringrose trots in off decent wide kick..

England kicking almost all their ball away, slow to get to the breakdown and slow recycling, about half the speed of Irelands. One man out rugby when they have penalty advantage. Ball hasn't got wide past Tuliagi yet, wingers need to get quicker ball. Luckily for them Ireland looking a bit rusty.

Stuart was in midfield, not getting up off the floor.

I didn't say he was! He was left exposed because his fellow forwards hadn't recovered and got back round the corner into the defensive line and as a result Stuart, to be fair, was having to cover a wider gap in line than he would have liked. Ireland spotted this and targeted him because of his lack of mobility and he was caught on his heels. Ireland were continually looking for and hitting the gaps in Englands defence close to the breakdown due to the slowness in English forwards resetting their lines. It seemed to work?

To be fair, that's also bollocks. What happened was two defenders going for big hits selling out the third. One bit in, the hands were too fast and that left Stuart with no chance.

It has nothing to do with the scenario you claimed before the game. The front row were already in midfield.

[dpedin]

Stuart was in midfield, not getting up off the floor.

I didn't say he was! He was left exposed because his fellow forwards hadn't recovered and got back round the corner into the defensive line and as a result Stuart, to be fair, was having to cover a wider gap in line than he would have liked. Ireland spotted this and targeted him because of his lack of mobility and he was caught on his heels. Ireland were continually looking for and hitting the gaps in Englands defence close to the breakdown due to the slowness in English forwards resetting their lines. It seemed to work?

To be fair, that's also bollocks. What happened was two defenders going for big hits selling out the third. One bit in, the hands were too fast and that left Stuart with no chance.

It has nothing to do with the scenario you claimed before the game. The front row were already in midfield.

Again - I didnt say they weren't! You are making up things I am supposed to have posted!

In the post above about the first try I didn't mention the English front row - I said his fellow forwards hadn't recovered and got back up round the corner and into the defensive line. Because of this their defence was stretched and the gaps between defenders were too big and Ireland trotted through. Vunipola and George were the ones slow to drift and get into position I think and this meant Stuart, the least mobile forward was exposed. To make matters worse and as you point out both Itoji and Genge I think came out of the line together and went for big hit on the ball carrier who just popped the ball out into the big space and Stuart was already rocking on his heels. Poor defence all round too slow and to be honest and too easy for Ireland.

[JM2K6]

I didn't say he was! He was left exposed because his fellow forwards hadn't recovered and got back round the corner into the defensive line and as a result Stuart, to be fair, was having to cover a wider gap in line than he would have liked. Ireland spotted this and targeted him because of his lack of mobility and he was caught on his heels. Ireland were continually looking for and hitting the gaps in Englands defence close to the breakdown due to the slowness in English forwards resetting their lines. It seemed to work?

To be fair, that's also bollocks. What happened was two defenders going for big hits selling out the third. One bit in, the hands were too fast and that left Stuart with no chance.

It has nothing to do with the scenario you claimed before the game. The front row were already in midfield.

Again - I didnt say they weren't! You are making up things I am supposed to have posted!

In the post above about the first try I didn't mention the English front row - I said his fellow forwards hadn't recovered and got back up round the corner and into the defensive line. Because of this their defence was stretched and the gaps between defenders were too big and Ireland trotted through. Vunipola and George were the ones slow to drift and get into position I think and this meant Stuart, the least mobile forward was exposed. To make matters worse and as you point out both Itoji and Genge I think came out of the line together and went for big hit on the ball carrier who just popped the ball out into the big space and Stuart was already rocking on his heels. Poor defence all round too slow and to be honest and too easy for Ireland.

Doh, I see where I went wrong. I thought you'd quoted the discussion about your pre match comments. That makes more sense, sorry.

[dpedin]

To be fair, that's also bollocks. What happened was two defenders going for big hits selling out the third. One bit in, the hands were too fast and that left Stuart with no chance.

It has nothing to do with the scenario you claimed before the game. The front row were already in midfield.

Again - I didnt say they weren't! You are making up things I am supposed to have posted!

In the post above about the first try I didn't mention the English front row - I said his fellow forwards hadn't recovered and got back up round the corner and into the defensive line. Because of this their defence was stretched and the gaps between defenders were too big and Ireland trotted through. Vunipola and George were the ones slow to drift and get into position I think and this meant Stuart, the least mobile forward was exposed. To make matters worse and as you point out both Itoji and Genge I think came out of the line together and went for big hit on the ball carrier who just popped the ball out into the big space and Stuart was already rocking on his heels. Poor defence all round too slow and to be honest and too easy for Ireland.

Doh, I see where I went wrong. I thought you'd quoted the discussion about your pre match comments. That makes more sense, sorry.

No problem mate!

[Torquemada 1420]

Can someone find Maro Itoje? We picked some bloke who jogs from breakdown to breakdown and watches as we get turned over.

I'm glad you picked up on that. I was watching him quite closely since I've wondered what happened to the world XV lock of some seasons ago. And yeah, he did that all game as far as I can see and got away with a few pens by clearing out from an offside position when he finally got there.

[Hal Jordan]

Can we hope that Youngs puts in a red card effort next week? Didn't see all the first half, just patches, but whilst he's not slow to get the ball when he arrives to the breakdown, he constantly seems to be a second away from it when the ball is already available.

Billy is probably only ending up with a 2 week ban, so I can't see us replacing him (is that even an option?)

Yeah, Youngs was appalling again. Can't kick the right distance. Can't pass. Creates nothing. Yet another pick on faith going badly wrong.

Can someone find Maro Itoje? We picked some bloke who jogs from breakdown to breakdown and watches as we get turned over.

Now, now, he gave away a penalty advantage for one of the Irish tries.

[el capitan]

Genuinely not sure we make it out of the group

[inactionman]

Do folk reckon you’re in worse or better shape than you would have been under Eddie J?

He needed to go, but seeing as we'd contracted him until after the WC then we should have held out until then. There was bound to be a dip, but the dip is made much worse by the fact he new coach can't realistically clear the decks and reset.

I just can't see what Borthwick could achieve - not that I think he'd necessarily be great, but it's a poisoned, cursed, scalding hot syphilitic chalice he's inherited.

[inactionman]

Can we hope that Youngs puts in a red card effort next week? Didn't see all the first half, just patches, but whilst he's not slow to get the ball when he arrives to the breakdown, he constantly seems to be a second away from it when the ball is already available.

Billy is probably only ending up with a 2 week ban, so I can't see us replacing him (is that even an option?)

His pass to Ford that almost bounced was the stage where I lost my rag, shouted and woke up the kids.

[Prembore]

Do folk reckon you’re in worse or better shape than you would have been under Eddie J?

He needed to go, but seeing as we'd contracted him until after the WC then we should have held out until then. There was bound to be a dip, but the dip is made much worse by the fact he new coach can't realistically clear the decks and reset.

I just can't see what Borthwick could achieve - not that I think he'd necessarily be great, but it's a poisoned, cursed, scalding hot syphilitic chalice he's inherited.

I disagree. He had the chance to clear the decks and I think he'd have got some sympathy had he gone for a complete overhaul of personnel and gameplan. He's largely doubled down on both, however, and therefore deserves all the opprobrium heading his way.

[fishfoodie]

Do folk reckon you’re in worse or better shape than you would have been under Eddie J?

He needed to go, but seeing as we'd contracted him until after the WC then we should have held out until then. There was bound to be a dip, but the dip is made much worse by the fact he new coach can't realistically clear the decks and reset.

I just can't see what Borthwick could achieve - not that I think he'd necessarily be great, but it's a poisoned, cursed, scalding hot syphilitic chalice he's inherited.

I disagree. He had the chance to clear the decks and I think he'd have got some sympathy had he gone for a complete overhaul of personnel and gameplan. He's largely doubled down on both, however, and therefore deserves all the opprobrium heading his way.

Not from the boring old farts who denied the issues with EJ, after the point when it was obvious they'd fucked up giving him a new contract !

For them to accept a clearout would mean admitting that it was their fault, & they're infallible.

[JM2K6]

Do folk reckon you’re in worse or better shape than you would have been under Eddie J?

He needed to go, but seeing as we'd contracted him until after the WC then we should have held out until then. There was bound to be a dip, but the dip is made much worse by the fact he new coach can't realistically clear the decks and reset.

I just can't see what Borthwick could achieve - not that I think he'd necessarily be great, but it's a poisoned, cursed, scalding hot syphilitic chalice he's inherited.

Borthwick has the thinnest pedigree for a job like this and his coaching staff have absolutely none. Winning the title doesn't automatically make you the saviour of an ailing international team.

Eddie should have been binned off a year before he was (at the very least, after the 2022 6N fiasco). But it's clear that Borthwick and his coaches are absolutely clueless at how to turn England around. It's absurd that he got the job. Even more absurd that he was given free rein to just hire his Leicester buddies. Richard Wigglesworth, for fucks sake

[Paddington Bear]

.

[fishfoodie]

Do folk reckon you’re in worse or better shape than you would have been under Eddie J?

He needed to go, but seeing as we'd contracted him until after the WC then we should have held out until then. There was bound to be a dip, but the dip is made much worse by the fact he new coach can't realistically clear the decks and reset.

I just can't see what Borthwick could achieve - not that I think he'd necessarily be great, but it's a poisoned, cursed, scalding hot syphilitic chalice he's inherited.

Borthwick has the thinnest pedigree for a job like this and his coaching staff have absolutely none. Winning the title doesn't automatically make you the saviour of an ailing international team.

Eddie should have been binned off a year before he was (at the very least, after the 2022 6N fiasco). But it's clear that Borthwick and his coaches are absolutely clueless at how to turn England around. It's absurd that he got the job. Even more absurd that he was given free rein to just hire his Leicester buddies. Richard Wigglesworth, for fucks sake

It all just highlighted another of the failings of EJs reign, & the RFUs desire/ability to keep him to the terms of his contract, because supposedly he was going to do managerial/coach development, as well as player development, when the results, as all can see was neither, or at least SFA on the player side, & zero on the managerial side

[Torquemada 1420]

Assuming the citing panel doesn't sh*t the bed again, does this mean Borthwick will bin his only 8 in Vunipola? He offers nothing anyway bar some scrum bulk. For all his shortcomings at intl level, Dombrandt has to better than this?

[ASMO]

We can definately see Englands progression under Scab....downwards does count as progression right? This is the worst England side i think i have ever seen. The players look unfit and disinterested, complete lack of basic skills, discipline..this is a team in complete crisis. All cannot be well in the camp, has Scab and his coaching group lost the dressing room? It definately feels like it.

[petej]

We can definately see Englands progression under Scab....downwards does count as progression right? This is the worst England side i think i have ever seen. The players look unfit and disinterested, complete lack of basic skills, discipline..this is a team in complete crisis. All cannot be well in the camp, has Scab and his coaching group lost the dressing room? It definately feels like it.

I just see that as a continuation. Jones is very much a conte or mourinho type coach. Great for the short term if you already have a good set of players. In 2015 we had a good set of players then Lancaster had a calamity at the world cup. England are a tear down and reset job. Borthwick is trying to prioritising the short term and world cup. Jones leadership group in the players are probably some of those you need to clear out. The season sarries were down Farrell was in absolutely rotten form but was selected regardless, feel a bit the same with Genge will be selected regardless of form if fit, youngs again the same.

[Stranger]

Totally agree that there has to be a tear down and reset straight after the WC, but I am far from convinced hat Borthwick is the man to do it.

[Paddington Bear]

We can definately see Englands progression under Scab....downwards does count as progression right? This is the worst England side i think i have ever seen. The players look unfit and disinterested, complete lack of basic skills, discipline..this is a team in complete crisis. All cannot be well in the camp, has Scab and his coaching group lost the dressing room? It definately feels like it.

The last time an England side truly gave a shit was the Ireland home game when Ewells got a red. Plenty of blame to Jones and Borthwick but the players aren’t putting in the efforts others do, and that’s on them.

The biggest issue remains for me our defensive system, almost every time a team strings two passes together there’s acres of space on the outside.

I’ve never felt less interested in a world cup, I don’t think we’re going to lose to Samoa or Japan, I think we may well win a quarter, but there’s no chance we get close to a proper side. Argentina will spank us