NPR

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:59 am I'll openly admit that I'm a political lightweight when it comes to discussing this but my overwhelming impression is that the Brexit negotiations will appear to be a walk in the park compared to what we would face in Independence negotiations. The UK government would have all the cards and have little or no reason to provide any concessions. With the vast majority of our imports coming from England or through England how could we possibly expect to negotiate a reasonable split.

Tattie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:45 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:59 am I'll openly admit that I'm a political lightweight when it comes to discussing this but my overwhelming impression is that the Brexit negotiations will appear to be a walk in the park compared to what we would face in Independence negotiations. The UK government would have all the cards and have little or no reason to provide any concessions. With the vast majority of our imports coming from England or through England how could we possibly expect to negotiate a reasonable split.

See to me this is just a version of the too wee/subsidised by England attitude.

Scotland would hold a pretty strong negotiating hand. We have a lot of what the rest of the UK needs, especially in regard to energy - renewables in particular. A very good friend of mine who is high up in an oil and gas company told me a few months ago that Scotland will be capable of providing almost all of the UKs renewable energy in the near future.

He’s a massive unionist so wasn’t too happy when I pointed out that that’s another great reason for independence.

Tattie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:45 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:59 am I'll openly admit that I'm a political lightweight when it comes to discussing this but my overwhelming impression is that the Brexit negotiations will appear to be a walk in the park compared to what we would face in Independence negotiations. The UK government would have all the cards and have little or no reason to provide any concessions. With the vast majority of our imports coming from England or through England how could we possibly expect to negotiate a reasonable split.

See to me this is just a version of the too wee/subsidised by England attitude.

Scotland would hold a pretty strong negotiating hand. We have a lot of what the rest of the UK needs, especially in regard to energy - renewables in particular. A very good friend of mine who is high up in an oil and gas company told me a few months ago that Scotland will be capable of providing almost all of the UKs renewable energy in the near future.

He’s a massive unionist so wasn’t too happy when I pointed out that that’s another great reason for independence.

Jock42 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:39 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:20 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:52 pm
In all honesty it just feels really tired now, can’t be bothered

This. Might be a covid thing, might be that I am fed up of division (although that appears to be the new normal) or that while I understand there needs to be a future debate on independence, I'd rather the time and money was spent on covid recovery, education etc rather than independence which will again dominate.

Completely understand that others will have very different opinions on that and that's fair enough.

The divide is one of the biggest kicks in the bollocks. The thought of going through this shite again is pretty depressing. I've said before that I was optimistic we would have an adult debate about things prior to the last referendum. It started well enough but quickly descended into immature tribal shite that got worse after the vote. We've not grown as a nation since then and I doubt we will in the coming year.

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:21 pm

Jock42 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:39 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:20 pm

This. Might be a covid thing, might be that I am fed up of division (although that appears to be the new normal) or that while I understand there needs to be a future debate on independence, I'd rather the time and money was spent on covid recovery, education etc rather than independence which will again dominate.

Completely understand that others will have very different opinions on that and that's fair enough.

The divide is one of the biggest kicks in the bollocks. The thought of going through this shite again is pretty depressing. I've said before that I was optimistic we would have an adult debate about things prior to the last referendum. It started well enough but quickly descended into immature tribal shite that got worse after the vote. We've not grown as a nation since then and I doubt we will in the coming year.

I thought the debate was very good for the first 18 months but then took a turn for the worse when UK wide media and politicians got involved in the last few months. Which kind of demonstrates another reason to get away in my mind.

Big D wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:29 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:21 pm

Jock42 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:39 pm
The divide is one of the biggest kicks in the bollocks. The thought of going through this shite again is pretty depressing. I've said before that I was optimistic we would have an adult debate about things prior to the last referendum. It started well enough but quickly descended into immature tribal shite that got worse after the vote. We've not grown as a nation since then and I doubt we will in the coming year.

I thought the debate was very good for the first 18 months but then took a turn for the worse when UK wide media and politicians got involved in the last few months. Which kind of demonstrates another reason to get away in my mind.

It was pretty ugly from the extremes of both sides long before the UK wide media, politicians and "personalities" got involved. We like to pretend otherwise but there is some nasty elements on either side and there has been for a while.

Jock42 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:49 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:29 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:21 pm

I thought the debate was very good for the first 18 months but then took a turn for the worse when UK wide media and politicians got involved in the last few months. Which kind of demonstrates another reason to get away in my mind.

It was pretty ugly from the extremes of both sides long before the UK wide media, politicians and "personalities" got involved. We like to pretend otherwise but there is some nasty elements on either side and there has been for a while.

Very much so. I also felt that began to filter down to more moderate people. The unpleasantness from certain elements
of the Nationalist side is probably the main reason my views are so entrenched.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:55 pm
You're in/were in the armed services weren't you? (I'm making an assumption on the username)

What do you think the overall feeling on the matter in the services is? Just from your own experiences and from folk you know.

I can't imagine there is too much support for Scot Indy from the services, though I'm open to correction.

Jock42 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:03 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:55 pm
You're in/were in the armed services weren't you? (I'm making an assumption on the username)

What do you think the overall feeling on the matter in the services is? Just from your own experiences and from folk you know.

I can't imagine there is too much support for Scot Indy from the services, though I'm open to correction.

Ex regular, serving reservist.

I wouldn't say it's 55/45 but there's probably a lot more than you think in favour of independence. Although, off hand, I'd say it's more those that have left.

C T wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:51 am

weegie01 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:55 pm I think it is known I favour independence.

But I can't see any case for having a referendum until it is 'the settled will of the Scottish people'. Lose another and the idea is in the long grass for a very, very long time.

In times of turmoil people either vote for the devil they know, or the bright shining promise. Trump was many things, but for many Americans there was the bright shining promise of MAGA. People believed that America was being held back, and if only someone could free them of those chains, they would once more become the land of milk and honey for all. That he was a charlatan did not matter, he gave people hope.

There is no bright shining promise in Scotland just now. There is the same tired old rhetoric which is not going to change anyone's mind. So people will stick with the devil they know. It really is flogging a dead horse at the moment.

This is about where my head is at.

I completely get the case for another referendum given all that has changed since the last, not least leaving the EU. But if winning the referendum is the intention rather than just having it, I can't see the win happening. Then after, the leaving the EU argument for another referendum is spent and it'll be a long while until the next one.

Seems more sensible to wait, let the leaving the EU impacts become more vivid, another couple of years of the current Tory government (not just Boris, a fair chunk of them are complicit), some more time to get answers to some of the bigger questions last time.

If Boris wants to kill this off for a while the best thing he could do is support it. I can't really believe the Scottish Government want it because losing is such a big risk and the impact of losing will be huge for the ultimate goal.

Seems like posturing/being seen to at least try and fulfil what they said they would do to me.

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:28 pm

C T wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:51 am

weegie01 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:55 pm I think it is known I favour independence.

But I can't see any case for having a referendum until it is 'the settled will of the Scottish people'. Lose another and the idea is in the long grass for a very, very long time.

In times of turmoil people either vote for the devil they know, or the bright shining promise. Trump was many things, but for many Americans there was the bright shining promise of MAGA. People believed that America was being held back, and if only someone could free them of those chains, they would once more become the land of milk and honey for all. That he was a charlatan did not matter, he gave people hope.

There is no bright shining promise in Scotland just now. There is the same tired old rhetoric which is not going to change anyone's mind. So people will stick with the devil they know. It really is flogging a dead horse at the moment.

This is about where my head is at.

I completely get the case for another referendum given all that has changed since the last, not least leaving the EU. But if winning the referendum is the intention rather than just having it, I can't see the win happening. Then after, the leaving the EU argument for another referendum is spent and it'll be a long while until the next one.

Seems more sensible to wait, let the leaving the EU impacts become more vivid, another couple of years of the current Tory government (not just Boris, a fair chunk of them are complicit), some more time to get answers to some of the bigger questions last time.

If Boris wants to kill this off for a while the best thing he could do is support it. I can't really believe the Scottish Government want it because losing is such a big risk and the impact of losing will be huge for the ultimate goal.

Seems like posturing/being seen to at least try and fulfil what they said they would do to me.

Do you really think that if they haven’t already got answers to some of the bigger questions last time they are going to come up with them now? It’s been 8/9 years and still the same questions not getting answers.

The dial hardly moving after all we have been through in the last few years suggests to me the whole thing needs reassessment. Maybe some honesty instead of the same old nonsense. I honestly think a more open and transparent approach would get me engaged but I’m not prepared to vote for something I know, and more importantly they know, is a lie

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:28 pm

C T wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:51 am

weegie01 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:55 pm I think it is known I favour independence.

But I can't see any case for having a referendum until it is 'the settled will of the Scottish people'. Lose another and the idea is in the long grass for a very, very long time.

In times of turmoil people either vote for the devil they know, or the bright shining promise. Trump was many things, but for many Americans there was the bright shining promise of MAGA. People believed that America was being held back, and if only someone could free them of those chains, they would once more become the land of milk and honey for all. That he was a charlatan did not matter, he gave people hope.

There is no bright shining promise in Scotland just now. There is the same tired old rhetoric which is not going to change anyone's mind. So people will stick with the devil they know. It really is flogging a dead horse at the moment.

This is about where my head is at.

I completely get the case for another referendum given all that has changed since the last, not least leaving the EU. But if winning the referendum is the intention rather than just having it, I can't see the win happening. Then after, the leaving the EU argument for another referendum is spent and it'll be a long while until the next one.

Seems more sensible to wait, let the leaving the EU impacts become more vivid, another couple of years of the current Tory government (not just Boris, a fair chunk of them are complicit), some more time to get answers to some of the bigger questions last time.

If Boris wants to kill this off for a while the best thing he could do is support it. I can't really believe the Scottish Government want it because losing is such a big risk and the impact of losing will be huge for the ultimate goal.

Seems like posturing/being seen to at least try and fulfil what they said they would do to me.

Do you really think that if they haven’t already got answers to some of the bigger questions last time they are going to come up with them now? It’s been 8/9 years and still the same questions not getting answers.

The dial hardly moving after all we have been through in the last few years suggests to me the whole thing needs reassessment. Maybe some honesty instead of the same old nonsense. I honestly think a more open and transparent approach would get me engaged but I’m not prepared to vote for something I know, and more importantly they know, is a lie

Tattie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:45 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:59 am I'll openly admit that I'm a political lightweight when it comes to discussing this but my overwhelming impression is that the Brexit negotiations will appear to be a walk in the park compared to what we would face in Independence negotiations. The UK government would have all the cards and have little or no reason to provide any concessions. With the vast majority of our imports coming from England or through England how could we possibly expect to negotiate a reasonable split.

See to me this is just a version of the too wee/subsidised by England attitude.

Scotland would hold a pretty strong negotiating hand. We have a lot of what the rest of the UK needs, especially in regard to energy - renewables in particular. A very good friend of mine who is high up in an oil and gas company told me a few months ago that Scotland will be capable of providing almost all of the UKs renewable energy in the near future.

He’s a massive unionist so wasn’t too happy when I pointed out that that’s another great reason for independence.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:56 pm I'd hope at least then when the SNP publishes it's proposal, they state that winning by a single vote isn't enough.

The worst case for Scotland is a small majority for Independence; that would be catastrophic; you'd have to have maybe a 60:40 split at worst to claim a credible mandate.

Thor Sedan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:27 pm It is tricky for me (and a few others in our circles). Independence would perhaps reopen relations with Europe (which is very popular in Scotland) - but there will always be that 'Can Scotland stand on its own'?

Energy is huge - both hydrocarbons and renewables....but would it be enough? Would large operator and service companies stick in Scotland with doubts over currency, borders etc.

I think after the first referendum, Brexit, downturn in O&G and then Covid and Ukraine - we're all just tired of these big social changes being debated. Maybe just give us a few years to steady the ship, have a break and then look at it then. It is just going to divide the country and cause all manner of hardship for an already beaten up population.

But my god it would be nice to be away from the Tory scum and useless Labour muppets that are currently pfaffing around.

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:32 pm

Thor Sedan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:27 pm It is tricky for me (and a few others in our circles). Independence would perhaps reopen relations with Europe (which is very popular in Scotland) - but there will always be that 'Can Scotland stand on its own'?

Energy is huge - both hydrocarbons and renewables....but would it be enough? Would large operator and service companies stick in Scotland with doubts over currency, borders etc.

I think after the first referendum, Brexit, downturn in O&G and then Covid and Ukraine - we're all just tired of these big social changes being debated. Maybe just give us a few years to steady the ship, have a break and then look at it then. It is just going to divide the country and cause all manner of hardship for an already beaten up population.

But my god it would be nice to be away from the Tory scum and useless Labour muppets that are currently pfaffing around.

If other countries our size can stand on their own without the level of energy resources we have, it’d be bizarre if we couldn’t.

Given the places that energy companies operate, the idea they wouldn’t operate in Scotland is in my view far fetched.

I’m certain it’ll happen eventually, it’s a question of when. The UK was created as part of the European empire building period (and no, I’m not saying Scotland is the last colony etc, I think that’s bullshit - our relationship with empire is far more complex) and it’s not fit for purpose in the modern world. If there’s not a genuine desire to redefine the UK as a state it will eventually break up.

Thor Sedan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:27 pm It is tricky for me (and a few others in our circles). Independence would perhaps reopen relations with Europe (which is very popular in Scotland) - but there will always be that 'Can Scotland stand on its own'?

Energy is huge - both hydrocarbons and renewables....but would it be enough? Would large operator and service companies stick in Scotland with doubts over currency, borders etc.

I think after the first referendum, Brexit, downturn in O&G and then Covid and Ukraine - we're all just tired of these big social changes being debated. Maybe just give us a few years to steady the ship, have a break and then look at it then. It is just going to divide the country and cause all manner of hardship for an already beaten up population.

But my god it would be nice to be away from the Tory scum and useless Labour muppets that are currently pfaffing around.

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:50 pm

Thor Sedan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:27 pm It is tricky for me (and a few others in our circles). Independence would perhaps reopen relations with Europe (which is very popular in Scotland) - but there will always be that 'Can Scotland stand on its own'?

Energy is huge - both hydrocarbons and renewables....but would it be enough? Would large operator and service companies stick in Scotland with doubts over currency, borders etc.

I think after the first referendum, Brexit, downturn in O&G and then Covid and Ukraine - we're all just tired of these big social changes being debated. Maybe just give us a few years to steady the ship, have a break and then look at it then. It is just going to divide the country and cause all manner of hardship for an already beaten up population.

But my god it would be nice to be away from the Tory scum and useless Labour muppets that are currently pfaffing around.

I’ve absolutely no doubt that Scotland can eventually stand on its own and be successful, but let’s have some honesty that joining the EU will take decades and there are going to be some really unpleasant economic issues and job losses - mainly to their core support- in the meantime. Let’s have that honest debate and see if we have the stomach for the reality. I honestly think i could be persuaded but I’m not interested in the fantasy being peddled at the moment.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:30 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:50 pm

Thor Sedan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:27 pm It is tricky for me (and a few others in our circles). Independence would perhaps reopen relations with Europe (which is very popular in Scotland) - but there will always be that 'Can Scotland stand on its own'?

Energy is huge - both hydrocarbons and renewables....but would it be enough? Would large operator and service companies stick in Scotland with doubts over currency, borders etc.

I think after the first referendum, Brexit, downturn in O&G and then Covid and Ukraine - we're all just tired of these big social changes being debated. Maybe just give us a few years to steady the ship, have a break and then look at it then. It is just going to divide the country and cause all manner of hardship for an already beaten up population.

But my god it would be nice to be away from the Tory scum and useless Labour muppets that are currently pfaffing around.

I’ve absolutely no doubt that Scotland can eventually stand on its own and be successful, but let’s have some honesty that joining the EU will take decades and there are going to be some really unpleasant economic issues and job losses - mainly to their core support- in the meantime. Let’s have that honest debate and see if we have the stomach for the reality. I honestly think i could be persuaded but I’m not interested in the fantasy being peddled at the moment.

I don't think it'd take that long. The longest part of the process is usually setting up institutions that meet EU requirements, Justice system, Civil service, etc, etc; & Scotland had all of that working when it was a member as part of the U, so the only risk is if there's drift.

The EU would be gun shy, if they thought that Scotland could turn into another Hungary, but you are a pretty low risk there

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:18 am What's everyone's views on SNP tactics here?

It sounds unlikely the UK government will provide an S30 like the Edinburgh Agreement that governed the 2014 referendum. I can't imagine that against that constitutional backdrop the Supreme Court will then rule in favour of the Scottish Government and say a legal referendum can be held without the UK Government's consent.

So is the plan essentially to let this play out but then get independence through winning the next UK General Election in Scotland on a platform that is exclusively 'if you vote for us, we'll declare independence'?

And for the doubters or noobs, they'll still have my vote - I'm so utterly fed up with anything UK I'd probably vote for independence if it came with mandatory shit-eating. Better that than contribute to a neo-fascist failed state. I apologise to people who rely on ferries to get off their Western Isles.

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:20 am

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:18 am What's everyone's views on SNP tactics here?

It sounds unlikely the UK government will provide an S30 like the Edinburgh Agreement that governed the 2014 referendum. I can't imagine that against that constitutional backdrop the Supreme Court will then rule in favour of the Scottish Government and say a legal referendum can be held without the UK Government's consent.

So is the plan essentially to let this play out but then get independence through winning the next UK General Election in Scotland on a platform that is exclusively 'if you vote for us, we'll declare independence'?

And for the doubters or noobs, they'll still have my vote - I'm so utterly fed up with anything UK I'd probably vote for independence if it came with mandatory shit-eating. Better that than contribute to a neo-fascist failed state. I apologise to people who rely on ferries to get off their Western Isles.

I think the plan is to demonstrate how Scotland doesn't get to decide its own future, either in law or in politics, and then play the 'what is the democratic route to independence?' card over and over again.

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:24 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:20 am

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:18 am What's everyone's views on SNP tactics here?

It sounds unlikely the UK government will provide an S30 like the Edinburgh Agreement that governed the 2014 referendum. I can't imagine that against that constitutional backdrop the Supreme Court will then rule in favour of the Scottish Government and say a legal referendum can be held without the UK Government's consent.

So is the plan essentially to let this play out but then get independence through winning the next UK General Election in Scotland on a platform that is exclusively 'if you vote for us, we'll declare independence'?

And for the doubters or noobs, they'll still have my vote - I'm so utterly fed up with anything UK I'd probably vote for independence if it came with mandatory shit-eating. Better that than contribute to a neo-fascist failed state. I apologise to people who rely on ferries to get off their Western Isles.

I think the plan is to demonstrate how Scotland doesn't get to decide its own future, either in law or in politics, and then play the 'what is the democratic route to independence?' card over and over again.

Yes, but (correct me if I'm wrong) some SNP high-ups have already mentioned the next GE as a de facto independence referendum as Plan B - so I'm wondering if that is the actual Plan A and the posturing about the Oct '23 referendum is essentially, like you say, to show that Scotland never gets its way within the UK.

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:18 am I apologise to people who rely on ferries to get off their Western Isles.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:48 am

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:18 am I apologise to people who rely on ferries to get off their Western Isles.

The ferries situation is bad, best part of five years late and £120M over budget, but it has updated and saved the shipyard, the ferries would still have been built if the contract had gone abroad

A quick google tells me London cross rail extension is three and a half years late and more than £4Bn over budget. Track and Trace(£22Bn), HS2 (closing in on doubling its original budget to around £100Bn), there are more if I can be arsed looking for them.

Is this whataboutery? Of course it is, but if these large Gov contracts are a stick that can be used to beat a government with, then it applies across the board

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:32 pm

Thor Sedan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:27 pm It is tricky for me (and a few others in our circles). Independence would perhaps reopen relations with Europe (which is very popular in Scotland) - but there will always be that 'Can Scotland stand on its own'?

Energy is huge - both hydrocarbons and renewables....but would it be enough? Would large operator and service companies stick in Scotland with doubts over currency, borders etc.

I think after the first referendum, Brexit, downturn in O&G and then Covid and Ukraine - we're all just tired of these big social changes being debated. Maybe just give us a few years to steady the ship, have a break and then look at it then. It is just going to divide the country and cause all manner of hardship for an already beaten up population.

But my god it would be nice to be away from the Tory scum and useless Labour muppets that are currently pfaffing around.

If other countries our size can stand on their own without the level of energy resources we have, it’d be bizarre if we couldn’t.

Given the places that energy companies operate, the idea they wouldn’t operate in Scotland is in my view far fetched.

I’m certain it’ll happen eventually, it’s a question of when. The UK was created as part of the European empire building period (and no, I’m not saying Scotland is the last colony etc, I think that’s bullshit - our relationship with empire is far more complex) and it’s not fit for purpose in the modern world. If there’s not a genuine desire to redefine the UK as a state it will eventually break up.

Thor Sedan wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:19 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:32 pm

Thor Sedan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:27 pm It is tricky for me (and a few others in our circles). Independence would perhaps reopen relations with Europe (which is very popular in Scotland) - but there will always be that 'Can Scotland stand on its own'?

Energy is huge - both hydrocarbons and renewables....but would it be enough? Would large operator and service companies stick in Scotland with doubts over currency, borders etc.

I think after the first referendum, Brexit, downturn in O&G and then Covid and Ukraine - we're all just tired of these big social changes being debated. Maybe just give us a few years to steady the ship, have a break and then look at it then. It is just going to divide the country and cause all manner of hardship for an already beaten up population.

But my god it would be nice to be away from the Tory scum and useless Labour muppets that are currently pfaffing around.

If other countries our size can stand on their own without the level of energy resources we have, it’d be bizarre if we couldn’t.

Given the places that energy companies operate, the idea they wouldn’t operate in Scotland is in my view far fetched.

I’m certain it’ll happen eventually, it’s a question of when. The UK was created as part of the European empire building period (and no, I’m not saying Scotland is the last colony etc, I think that’s bullshit - our relationship with empire is far more complex) and it’s not fit for purpose in the modern world. If there’s not a genuine desire to redefine the UK as a state it will eventually break up.

But very few countries have been so intrinsically linked with another country - for so long and then gone out on their own. Can you name me a country with similar characteristics to Scotland that has gone independent and enjoys a similar or better standard of living (maybe Rep. of Ireland)? This isn't a gotcha question - it is a genuinely interested one.

The issues with currency, health industry, policing, education etc etc are massive issues when discussing independence. Not to mention the huge central belt bias shown by the SNP.

It isn't simple - and many folk are genuinely worried about the way it may affect their lives.

Personally - I am more open to it due to what the state of affairs is down in Westminster. But perhaps a Labour government would temper the fervour for it? Can't see it happening though.

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:32 pm The UK was created as part of the European empire building period (and no, I’m not saying Scotland is the last colony etc, I think that’s bullshit - our relationship with empire is far more complex) and it’s not fit for purpose in the modern world. If there’s not a genuine desire to redefine the UK as a state it will eventually break up.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:38 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:32 pm The UK was created as part of the European empire building period (and no, I’m not saying Scotland is the last colony etc, I think that’s bullshit - our relationship with empire is far more complex) and it’s not fit for purpose in the modern world. If there’s not a genuine desire to redefine the UK as a state it will eventually break up.

OTOH, I think it can be argued that England was the first colony of the Empire and if things had gone differently in the last 80 years, or last forty at least there would be less call for independence.
There was a lot of good work done in the post-war consensus, but that was attacked ferociously by Thatcher and we've never really recovered from that time.

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:43 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:38 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:32 pm The UK was created as part of the European empire building period (and no, I’m not saying Scotland is the last colony etc, I think that’s bullshit - our relationship with empire is far more complex) and it’s not fit for purpose in the modern world. If there’s not a genuine desire to redefine the UK as a state it will eventually break up.

OTOH, I think it can be argued that England was the first colony of the Empire and if things had gone differently in the last 80 years, or last forty at least there would be less call for independence.
There was a lot of good work done in the post-war consensus, but that was attacked ferociously by Thatcher and we've never really recovered from that time.

Even with Thatcher though, she understood the need to redefine the UK in the post Empire world and wanted to position us as working with and leading the EU along with France and Germany (despite the clashes and difficulties she saw it as the way forward in the post-colonial world order). It's the last ten or twenty years it's really gone to shit as the loonies have taken over the tories and their voters haven't noticed.

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:54 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:43 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:38 am


OTOH, I think it can be argued that England was the first colony of the Empire and if things had gone differently in the last 80 years, or last forty at least there would be less call for independence.
There was a lot of good work done in the post-war consensus, but that was attacked ferociously by Thatcher and we've never really recovered from that time.

Even with Thatcher though, she understood the need to redefine the UK in the post Empire world and wanted to position us as working with and leading the EU along with France and Germany (despite the clashes and difficulties she saw it as the way forward in the post-colonial world order). It's the last ten or twenty years it's really gone to shit as the loonies have taken over the tories and their voters haven't noticed.

Thatcher broke the 'one nation' idea, or at least she allowed others in her Government to experiment with different (tax and funding) rules for different parts of the UK, and that was the catalyst for making independence a mainstream concern in Scotland.

At the same time, as you say, she was very much pro-European and saw the UK leading in Europe as its new role post-Empire.

It's funny that the current demolition mob in Westminster does it all in name of Churchill and Thatcher.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:19 am An article in the Torygraph claims that after independence Scots would no longer be able to order hampers from Fortnam & Masons, just as has happened to the poor souls in Northern Ireland.

That’s the baw burst then

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:20 am

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:18 am What's everyone's views on SNP tactics here?

It sounds unlikely the UK government will provide an S30 like the Edinburgh Agreement that governed the 2014 referendum. I can't imagine that against that constitutional backdrop the Supreme Court will then rule in favour of the Scottish Government and say a legal referendum can be held without the UK Government's consent.

So is the plan essentially to let this play out but then get independence through winning the next UK General Election in Scotland on a platform that is exclusively 'if you vote for us, we'll declare independence'?

And for the doubters or noobs, they'll still have my vote - I'm so utterly fed up with anything UK I'd probably vote for independence if it came with mandatory shit-eating. Better that than contribute to a neo-fascist failed state. I apologise to people who rely on ferries to get off their Western Isles.

I think the plan is to demonstrate how Scotland doesn't get to decide its own future, either in law or in politics, and then play the 'what is the democratic route to independence?' card over and over again.

Blackmac wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:47 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:19 am An article in the Torygraph claims that after independence Scots would no longer be able to order hampers from Fortnam & Masons, just as has happened to the poor souls in Northern Ireland.

That’s the baw burst then

It looked like a tongue in cheek ending to an article highlighting the issues we would have importing fresh produce from England. We'll ignore that part though.

Sassenach racing pigeons would be frisked by unsmiling border guards because of EU animal health rules. And English racehorses would face new bureaucratic hurdles to clear before they could compete in independent Scotland.

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:51 am Any of you knowledgeable peeps know if I could apply for a Scottish passport?

My Grandfather was born to Scottish parents in South Africa) they died then he was 4, he then adopted by a Jewish Family in London, He was an air raid warden in 1940 in Finchley before moving back to SA during or soon after the war?

My great grand parents (his parents) were both born in Aberdeen. Not sure if I can get my hands on my official documents, all this has been gleaned through MyHeritage website/research.

My great great great grandfather was recorded as the Hotel Keeper of the Queens Hotel in Lerwick (Shetlands) in 1881, which still exists!