The one and only UK 2024 election thread - July 4

[sockwithaticket]

So Abbot has the whip restored and is not selected as a candidate.

Frankly, I wouldn't have bothered restoring the whip. What she wrote was blatantly anti-semitic and merely the latest in a long line of gaffes that could, at best, be described as racially insensitive. That should be enough to get kicked out of a party.

Anything other than fully restoring her would generate howls of outrage from ardent supporters, the halfway house solution has solved nothing.

[C69]

Junior Doctors strike for 5 days to finish on July 2nd
Lol

[tabascoboy]

Here we go...



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Prime Minister,

Today, former Prime Minister Liz Truss, a Conservative candidate in the upcoming general election, will be interviewed on the far-right platform 'Lotus Eaters', founded by Carl Benjamin, an extreme far-right commentator.

Benjamin has despicable views about violence against women. When I highlighted the volume of rape threats received by female MPs, including myself, Benjamin responded, "I wouldn't even rape you", later adding "There's been an awful lot of talk about whether I would or wouldn't rape Jess Phillips. I suppose with enough pressure I might cave, but let's be honest nobody's got that much beer."

The impact men like Benjamin have on politics cannot be understated. Men like Benjamin make female MPs live in fear, while discouraging women from standing in future, weakening our democracy in the process.
You have a responsibility as leader of your Party to uphold high standards among your MPs and candidates, and you have a responsibility as Prime Minister to foster a safe environment for MPs, particularly female MPs who face ever-increasing rates of abuse and threat.

As well as these misogynistic views, Carl Benjamin has promoted the Great Replacement Theory and shared fringe conspiracy theories, such as that the World Economic Forum is trying to control society. He recently launched the group 'Hearts of Oak' with far-right thug Tommy Robinson.
It is clear that anyone willing to appear on this hateful platform is not suitable to be a candidate for any political party. Even Reform UK deselected one of its candidates after his harmful views and work as a content creator for Lotus Eaters was exposed.

If you have any decency, you will deselect Liz Truss as Conservative candidate for South West Norfolk. Anything less than this will show how weak you are and how far the Conservative Party has sunk.

Yours sincerely,

Jess Phillips

[_Os_]

The JLP poll quoted by the Torygraph is very much an outlier. All the other polls are pretty consistent with Labour on about 45% and the Tories around 23%, and that doesn't seem to have shifted much at all since the campaign started.

First poll conducted by a decent outfit fully after the national service pledge. The Tories have succeeded in growing the Labour lead. If the Tories don't have a good June they risk going extinct.

NEW. The Labour Party has EXTENDED its lead over the Conservatives, according to the first exclusive YouGov poll of the campaign for Sky News
The Great Britain poll - conducted on Mon and Tue this week - puts Labour on 47%, the Tories on 20%, Reform on 12%, the LibDems on 9% and Greens on 7%.

[I like neeps]

The JLP poll quoted by the Torygraph is very much an outlier. All the other polls are pretty consistent with Labour on about 45% and the Tories around 23%, and that doesn't seem to have shifted much at all since the campaign started.

Interestingly it was run for The Rest is Politics podcast.

[_Os_]

Dear Prime Minister,

Today, former Prime Minister Liz Truss, a Conservative candidate in the upcoming general election, will be interviewed on the far-right platform 'Lotus Eaters', founded by Carl Benjamin, an extreme far-right commentator.

Benjamin has despicable views about violence against women. When I highlighted the volume of rape threats received by female MPs, including myself, Benjamin responded, "I wouldn't even rape you", later adding "There's been an awful lot of talk about whether I would or wouldn't rape Jess Phillips. I suppose with enough pressure I might cave, but let's be honest nobody's got that much beer."

The impact men like Benjamin have on politics cannot be understated. Men like Benjamin make female MPs live in fear, while discouraging women from standing in future, weakening our democracy in the process.
You have a responsibility as leader of your Party to uphold high standards among your MPs and candidates, and you have a responsibility as Prime Minister to foster a safe environment for MPs, particularly female MPs who face ever-increasing rates of abuse and threat.

As well as these misogynistic views, Carl Benjamin has promoted the Great Replacement Theory and shared fringe conspiracy theories, such as that the World Economic Forum is trying to control society. He recently launched the group 'Hearts of Oak' with far-right thug Tommy Robinson.
It is clear that anyone willing to appear on this hateful platform is not suitable to be a candidate for any political party. Even Reform UK deselected one of its candidates after his harmful views and work as a content creator for Lotus Eaters was exposed.

If you have any decency, you will deselect Liz Truss as Conservative candidate for South West Norfolk. Anything less than this will show how weak you are and how far the Conservative Party has sunk.

Yours sincerely,

Jess Phillips

A much more important and bigger story than the media reporting is going to indicate.

It's fucking mad how often and how regularly Truss is appearing on far right outlets and conducting interviews with these people. It's always the same type, people that are in my view fascists but call themselves something like "new conservatives"/"classical liberals"/"national conservatives"/"social nationalists". She wants to be Tory leader again and this is the direction she sees the wind blowing.

Sunak should be using this to withdraw the whip and remove her from the Tory party. If the Tories want to be a serious party, they need to put maximum distance between them and Big Dog/Truss/Brexit. They need to disown them all. Telling that they refuse to even mention Brexit this election, their supposed great success.

Media are ignoring it because most of them a right wing, they're not going to attack the Tories over Truss because it'll harm the Tories and they don't want that. It's the exact opposite to the nonsense over Rayner. The other reason is because Truss is a former PM and she is deeply embarrassing, if she is attacked then by proxy it is harming the office of PM and the UK state. I think everyone is just hoping she disappears. But she's not going to.

Between Big Dog, Truss, and possibly Sunak once he enters a sleazy US corporate, the title "former PM of the UK" is going to end up diminished.

[Hal Jordan]

More normality as Sunak boards a train unaccompanied by an adult, dressed in clothes that ordinary people wear (don't they?).

[_Os_]

You have to wonder what's driving the obsession at this point. The police have investigated and concluded nothing has happened, the council have said the same, on all reports HMRC aren't interested either. No indication that Rayner has not co-operated with all of it.

What is with the Tory harassers who cannot even say what Rayner has done wrong when asked (fears of libel by any chance)? Why are these men particularly interested in Rayner?

[sockwithaticket]

You have to wonder what's driving the obsession at this point. The police have investigated and concluded nothing has happened, the council have said the same, on all reports HMRC aren't interested either. No indication that Rayner has not co-operated with all of it.

What is with the Tory harassers who cannot even say what Rayner has done wrong when asked (fears of libel by any chance)? Why are these men particularly interested in Rayner?

It's classism and misogyny combined into a particularly repugnant package.

But also the right over the last several years has really taken the 'never apologise, always insist you're correct' mantra to heart. It doesn't matter if you can be proven wrong by facts because it's a post-truth world and a certain number of people want to believe you instead of reality anyway. No one who cedes ground in any fashion will hold the attention of the outrage addicts living in a paralell version of the world.

[_Os_]

But also the right over the last several years has really taken the 'never apologise, always insist you're correct' mantra to heart. It doesn't matter if you can be proven wrong by facts because it's a post-truth world and a certain number of people want to believe you instead of reality anyway. No one who cedes ground in any fashion will hold the attention of the outrage addicts living in a paralell version of the world.

True. But that's a zero sum strategy, only works if the other side plays nice and you never lose. If you lose horrendously badly and it turns out the other side isn't interested in playing nice either, then you're fucked.

I'm sure Starmer and Rayner are going to turn the other cheek once they have all the power, and will not at all remember when the Tory media and some Tory MPs cornered the police into launching criminal investigations against them.

[sockwithaticket]

But also the right over the last several years has really taken the 'never apologise, always insist you're correct' mantra to heart. It doesn't matter if you can be proven wrong by facts because it's a post-truth world and a certain number of people want to believe you instead of reality anyway. No one who cedes ground in any fashion will hold the attention of the outrage addicts living in a paralell version of the world.

True. But that's a zero sum strategy, only works if the other side plays nice and you never lose. If you lose horrendously badly and it turns out the other side isn't interested in playing nice either, then you're fucked.

I'm sure Starmer and Rayner are going to turn the other cheek once they have all the power, and will not at all remember when the Tory media and some Tory MPs cornered the police into launching criminal investigations against them.

Well, yeah, I don't think anyone's going to accuse the practioners of thinking things through.

A big part of it is even if it's not directly the Tory party, but their SPADs and Tufton St. types, funds and ideas are being fed in from the US far right without quite working out that it's somewhat successful there due to structural quirks in their political system and society that aren't replicated here.

As far as the hacks like Hodges go, the right wing press is rarely made to be contrite, they suffer no tangible consequences for what they do, so why stop? At least the electorate can tell politicians indulging in this nonsense to get fucked via the ballot box.

[_Os_]

Well, yeah, I don't think anyone's going to accuse the practioners of thinking things through.

A big part of it is even if it's not directly the Tory party, but their SPADs and Tufton St. types, funds and ideas are being fed in from the US far right without quite working out that it's somewhat successful there due to structural quirks in their political system and society that aren't replicated here.

As far as the hacks like Hodges go, the right wing press is rarely made to be contrite, they suffer no tangible consequences for what they do, so why stop? At least the electorate can tell politicians indulging in this nonsense to get fucked via the ballot box.

They're over estimating their importance. Blair/New Labour needed their support so didn't move against them. Starmer/Labour clearly now don't need their support, they're well ahead in the polls and these papers don't support them. Their readership numbers are well down, The Sun is loss making so you have to wonder about some of the others.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see the Murdoch titles row in behind Labour if the polling remains like this. His ego wouldn't be able to take Starmer winning without his endorsement. It would be bollocks, he's left it too late it clearly doesn't matter who the Sun or Times supports.

As you say the UK isn't the US. The UK state is more centralised, the executive and legislature is fused. If a party wins a large majority and that party is disciplined and whipped effectively, then the PM can act like a president (and actually has more power than most presidents). Under those conditions a PM could decide that maybe the media needs a reform and regulation bill. The trick unlike Sunak's pet project the Rwanda scheme is to make it workable. It then gets forced through and happens.

What could Labour do? Make it mandatory for all beneficial owners of large media operations to be tax resident in the UK. Make it mandatory for all newspapers to display their owners names and details and the details of who funds the publication and which other titles are part of the group, on a bar at the bottom of the frontpage of the print edition, and a floating bar that appears at the bottom of every webpage. I'm sure there's more that could be done to make the Mail/Sun/Express/Telegraph uncomfortable. Goading the police into criminal investigations into the exact people who will likely soon have this power over them doesn't seem wise.

[tabascoboy]

Hopefully they will be disgusted and keep him out!

[Hal Jordan]

You have to wonder what's driving the obsession at this point. The police have investigated and concluded nothing has happened, the council have said the same, on all reports HMRC aren't interested either. No indication that Rayner has not co-operated with all of it.

What is with the Tory harassers who cannot even say what Rayner has done wrong when asked (fears of libel by any chance)? Why are these men particularly interested in Rayner?

It's verging on stalking her at this point, what a sad sack.

[Biffer]

Rishi Sunak says the timing of the Junior Doctors strike looks 'incredibly political'

Well, yeah. You fucking halfwit.

[Slick]

Rishi Sunak says the timing of the Junior Doctors strike looks 'incredibly political'

Well, yeah. You fucking halfwit.

[salanya]

The BBC seems determined for us to think that whether Diane Abbott stands as an MP in the election is headline news.

I couldn't give a shit.

[Paddington Bear]

Disagree, it’s a reasonable barometer for how Starmer intends to govern

[salanya]

Disagree, it’s a reasonable barometer for how Starmer intends to govern

True, but it's not the headline news for 48hrs.
Especially as Abbott is the one pushing the story.

I'm just annoyed as to how news headlines are selected and pushed nowadays.

[sockwithaticket]

It's the media desperately trying to find 'interesting'/attention-grabbing coverage angles. This is the only election in my lifetime that I can recall being viewed as such a foregone conclusion and so far the Tory campaign is only making a Labour win more likely. The media want their clicks and views over the next 5 weeks and that's not going to com without stirring a bit.

There's a bit of a story in how long it took between Abbot writing the offending piece and finally arriving at this decision that she shan't stand, but it's definitely not headline news in the midst of an election.

A bigger story is why was the whip restored in the first place, what she wrote was repugnant and more than justifies kicking her out of the party full stop, but even that's not particularly worth going into at the moment.

[Lobby]

It's the media desperately trying to find 'interesting'/attention-grabbing coverage angles. This is the only election in my lifetime that I can recall being viewed as such a foregone conclusion and so far the Tory campaign is only making a Labour win more likely. The media want their clicks and views over the next 5 weeks and that's not going to com without stirring a bit.

There's a bit of a story in how long it took between Abbot writing the offending piece and finally arriving at this decision that she shan't stand, but it's definitely not headline news in the midst of an election.

A bigger story is why was the whip restored in the first place, what she wrote was repugnant and more than justifies kicking her out of the party full stop, but even that's not particularly worth going into at the moment.

It's also because most of the political correspondents are glorified gossip columnists and are only really interested in who's in or out at Westminster, so for them the shenanigans around Abbot's suspension, reinstatement and possible exclusion from this election is a 'juicy' story. They all struggle with anything that's actually about politics rather than personalities.

I think that's why they are all so happy to give Farage disproportionate and undeserved airtime - he's a personality who's recognised by the public, so they don't think about the political consequences of always giving him a free public platform to spread his extremist messages.

[Tichtheid]

When I read what Abbott had written I thought it was ignorant and very ill-conceived. However, my reaction was tempered by my white man's guilt over what to tell a black woman what constitutes prejudice and racism so I kept my mouth shut on it.

It did strike me however that whilst the anti-Semitism was pointed out, I don't recall many speaking up for Gypsies and travellers, it may be of course just that I missed those that did.

I saw a post on FB recently stating that a host of caravans had pulled up and parked at a site near my town, numerous posts complained about this and told each other to double lock their windows and doors, that thefts had increased in the locality (no numbers or police figures, just that thefts had been going up, even seemingly in the weeks prior to the travellers' arrival)

If someone told another to lock up their doors and windows because "The Jews" were here or "The Blacks" were here, I wager there would be a different response to the posts

[Simian]

Disagree, it’s a reasonable barometer for how Starmer intends to govern

In what way?

[Sandstorm]

The BBC seems determined for us to think that whether Diane Abbott stands as an MP in the election is headline news.

I couldn't give a shit.

I watched her speech on the steps, she's well on the road to dementia in my opinion. Might be Parkinson's, the poor thing.

[epwc]

I watched her speech on the steps, she's well on the road to dementia in my opinion. Might be Parkinson's, the poor thing.

Agree

[Lobby]

The BBC seems determined for us to think that whether Diane Abbott stands as an MP in the election is headline news.

I couldn't give a shit.

I watched her speech on the steps, she's well on the road to dementia in my opinion. Might be Parkinson's, the poor thing.

She was forced to reveal she has type 2 diabetes in 2017 after press coverage of her health issues at the time. That could explain why she sometimes appears confused and forgetful, something that does seem to have been a problem for her over the last 6 or 7 years.

Ideally she should have retired a while ago on health grounds, and I suspect that the 'deal' the Labour party was trying to agree with her was that she would be reinstated but then retire before the election, but that has all backfired.

[I like neeps]

The BBC seems determined for us to think that whether Diane Abbott stands as an MP in the election is headline news.

I couldn't give a shit.

I watched her speech on the steps, she's well on the road to dementia in my opinion. Might be Parkinson's, the poor thing.

She was forced to reveal she has type 2 diabetes in 2017 after press coverage of her health issues at the time. That could explain why she sometimes appears confused and forgetful, something that does seem to have been a problem for her over the last 6 or 7 years.

Ideally she should have retired a while ago on health grounds, and I suspect that the 'deal' the Labour party was trying to agree with her was that she would be reinstated but then retire before the election, but that has all backfired.

That's what was agreed according to some of the journos. Wouldn't surprise me if Abbott wanted to give Starmer and co a bit of a bloody nose on the way out and so reneged on the agreement.

[sockwithaticket]

When I read what Abbott had written I thought it was ignorant and very ill-conceived. However, my reaction was tempered by my white man's guilt over what to tell a black woman what constitutes prejudice and racism so I kept my mouth shut on it.

It did strike me however that whilst the anti-Semitism was pointed out, I don't recall many speaking up for Gypsies and travellers, it may be of course just that I missed those that did.

I saw a post on FB recently stating that a host of caravans had pulled up and parked at a site near my town, numerous posts complained about this and told each other to double lock their windows and doors, that thefts had increased in the locality (no numbers or police figures, just that thefts had been going up, even seemingly in the weeks prior to the travellers' arrival)

If someone told another to lock up their doors and windows because "The Jews" were here or "The Blacks" were here, I wager there would be a different response to the posts

The relationship between the populous and Travellers and other minority groups is very different. Jewish, black, Asian and others besides all live as part of society whereas Travellers are mostly visible due to their rejection of it. Someone might have a bad experience with a Jew or a Pakistani person, but chances are they'll also have some good ones that help prevent falling into homogenising the whole group because they exist in our communities and function as members of those communities whether it's friends, family, colleagues or workers you have multiple interactions with. All those other groups have prominent public figures, be it in politics or the media to lead the charge against writings like Abbot's because they embrace and are part of society. A lot of people only experience Travellers when they pitch up in town, take over a car park, park or field and move on having left it in an absolute state. Plenty will have more direct poor experience too.

Sad to say, but the only positive experience I've had with Travellers was just one boy I taught and it's basically that he was normally behaved (when present, he missed months and months of school at a time to help out with his family's horses). There was a small group of Travellers at the school and they were all in and out the whole time (which I have issues with, it's clear they weren't doing any work while absent, nor were attempts made to catch up. Other pupils and their parents face sanctions for missing even a fraction of the school time), frankly we preferred it when they weren't present because they were far and away the most disruptive pupils, even when compared to others with diagnosed behavioural issues, with an astounding resistance to even the mildest exercise of authority. Simple requests like putting a football away so the lesson could start or to stop wandering around the room would result in a drag out row which ate chunks out of the lesson and ultimately lead to removal. When I was a teenager there was a group that would come into Guildford quite regularly and they just started fights out of the blue. You'd be sitting with your friends in a park and next thing you know there's this group of boys trying to paw at the girls in your group or just generally getting in faces for no particular reason. Working in a shop in town there after uni Traveller kids were constantly in and out trying to shoplift or just being disruptive by running around the store trashing displays. Security barred them and had issues with the parents coming down to issue threats. When I worked at the Surrey uni campus one of the car parks was occupied by Travellers for a couple of weeks until the police moved them on and they left it covered in shit and rubbish. Basically all the stereotypical stuff you read about in the media and hear from others and with very little to provide a counterbalance

While we're right to resist homogenised characterisations of groups, our direct experience and hearing the same stuff from others over and over will shape views.

[I like neeps]

https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/12246 ... TXtQw&s=19

Ah.

[Tichtheid]

When I read what Abbott had written I thought it was ignorant and very ill-conceived. However, my reaction was tempered by my white man's guilt over what to tell a black woman what constitutes prejudice and racism so I kept my mouth shut on it.

It did strike me however that whilst the anti-Semitism was pointed out, I don't recall many speaking up for Gypsies and travellers, it may be of course just that I missed those that did.

I saw a post on FB recently stating that a host of caravans had pulled up and parked at a site near my town, numerous posts complained about this and told each other to double lock their windows and doors, that thefts had increased in the locality (no numbers or police figures, just that thefts had been going up, even seemingly in the weeks prior to the travellers' arrival)

If someone told another to lock up their doors and windows because "The Jews" were here or "The Blacks" were here, I wager there would be a different response to the posts

The relationship between the populous and Travellers and other minority groups is very different. Jewish, black, Asian and others besides all live as part of society whereas Travellers are mostly visible due to their rejection of it. Someone might have a bad experience with a Jew or a Pakistani person, but chances are they'll also have some good ones that help prevent falling into homogenising the whole group because they exist in our communities and function as members of those communities whether it's friends, family, colleagues or workers you have multiple interactions with. All those other groups have prominent public figures, be it in politics or the media to lead the charge against writings like Abbot's because they embrace and are part of society. A lot of people only experience Travellers when they pitch up in town, take over a car park, park or field and move on having left it in an absolute state. Plenty will have more direct poor experience too.

Sad to say, but the only positive experience I've had with Travellers was just one boy I taught and it's basically that he was normally behaved (when present, he missed months and months of school at a time to help out with his family's horses). There was a small group of Travellers at the school and they were all in and out the whole time (which I have issues with, it's clear they weren't doing any work while absent, nor were attempts made to catch up. Other pupils and their parents face sanctions for missing even a fraction of the school time), frankly we preferred it when they weren't present because they were far and away the most disruptive pupils, even when compared to others with diagnosed behavioural issues, with an astounding resistance to even the mildest exercise of authority. Simple requests like putting a football away so the lesson could start or to stop wandering around the room would result in a drag out row which ate chunks out of the lesson and ultimately lead to removal. When I was a teenager there was a group that would come into Guildford quite regularly and they just started fights out of the blue. You'd be sitting with your friends in a park and next thing you know there's this group of boys trying to paw at the girls in your group or just generally getting in faces for no particular reason. Working in a shop in town there after uni Traveller kids were constantly in and out trying to shoplift or just being disruptive by running around the store trashing displays. Security barred them and had issues with the parents coming down to issue threats. When I worked at the Surrey uni campus one of the car parks was occupied by Travellers for a couple of weeks until the police moved them on and they left it covered in shit and rubbish. Basically all the stereotypical stuff you read about in the media and hear from others and with very little to provide a counterbalance

While we're right to resist homogenised characterisations of groups, our direct experience and hearing the same stuff from others over and over will shape views.

I'm not sure I can do this whole discussion again, I've been through it several times on several boards, but just very quickly, all of those acts, and worse, are also perpetrated by the settled community, sometimes by large institutions like particular churches. On a more mundane level there is rubbish and waste left all over town by the settled community every single day.
Travellers of many backgrounds are over-represented in prisons, but there is nothing that I have found to date that shows they are more likely to commit a criminal offence - similarly non-white communities are also over-represented in UK prisons.
The Roma and others were targeted in exactly the same way as Jewish people in Nazi Germany, but are not thought about in the same way here, it's one of the last "acceptable" racisms
When people were cleared off the land in Scotland some emigrated, some moved south and some became itinerant workers, doing seasonal agricultural work - we grew up with the word "tink" as a pejorative.

Anyway, none of this was the point I was trying to make, it was only that I hadn't heard anyone raise their voice in defence of travellers over what Diane Abbott had written

[salanya]

I see Rayner is now helping Abbott point the gun to shoot their own party in the foot.

5 weeks away from the election, you have a 20 point+ margin, yet the discipline to focus on this is waining with some already.

It's not about the opinions; surely this is the one time you have to play the politics.
I'm not happy about it, but you can see why Starmer is playing it boring and is overly quiet on policies etc.

[sockwithaticket]

When I read what Abbott had written I thought it was ignorant and very ill-conceived. However, my reaction was tempered by my white man's guilt over what to tell a black woman what constitutes prejudice and racism so I kept my mouth shut on it.

It did strike me however that whilst the anti-Semitism was pointed out, I don't recall many speaking up for Gypsies and travellers, it may be of course just that I missed those that did.

I saw a post on FB recently stating that a host of caravans had pulled up and parked at a site near my town, numerous posts complained about this and told each other to double lock their windows and doors, that thefts had increased in the locality (no numbers or police figures, just that thefts had been going up, even seemingly in the weeks prior to the travellers' arrival)

If someone told another to lock up their doors and windows because "The Jews" were here or "The Blacks" were here, I wager there would be a different response to the posts

The relationship between the populous and Travellers and other minority groups is very different. Jewish, black, Asian and others besides all live as part of society whereas Travellers are mostly visible due to their rejection of it. Someone might have a bad experience with a Jew or a Pakistani person, but chances are they'll also have some good ones that help prevent falling into homogenising the whole group because they exist in our communities and function as members of those communities whether it's friends, family, colleagues or workers you have multiple interactions with. All those other groups have prominent public figures, be it in politics or the media to lead the charge against writings like Abbot's because they embrace and are part of society. A lot of people only experience Travellers when they pitch up in town, take over a car park, park or field and move on having left it in an absolute state. Plenty will have more direct poor experience too.

Sad to say, but the only positive experience I've had with Travellers was just one boy I taught and it's basically that he was normally behaved (when present, he missed months and months of school at a time to help out with his family's horses). There was a small group of Travellers at the school and they were all in and out the whole time (which I have issues with, it's clear they weren't doing any work while absent, nor were attempts made to catch up. Other pupils and their parents face sanctions for missing even a fraction of the school time), frankly we preferred it when they weren't present because they were far and away the most disruptive pupils, even when compared to others with diagnosed behavioural issues, with an astounding resistance to even the mildest exercise of authority. Simple requests like putting a football away so the lesson could start or to stop wandering around the room would result in a drag out row which ate chunks out of the lesson and ultimately lead to removal. When I was a teenager there was a group that would come into Guildford quite regularly and they just started fights out of the blue. You'd be sitting with your friends in a park and next thing you know there's this group of boys trying to paw at the girls in your group or just generally getting in faces for no particular reason. Working in a shop in town there after uni Traveller kids were constantly in and out trying to shoplift or just being disruptive by running around the store trashing displays. Security barred them and had issues with the parents coming down to issue threats. When I worked at the Surrey uni campus one of the car parks was occupied by Travellers for a couple of weeks until the police moved them on and they left it covered in shit and rubbish. Basically all the stereotypical stuff you read about in the media and hear from others and with very little to provide a counterbalance

While we're right to resist homogenised characterisations of groups, our direct experience and hearing the same stuff from others over and over will shape views.

I'm not sure I can do this whole discussion again, I've been through it several times on several boards, but just very quickly, all of those acts, and worse, are also perpetrated by the settled community, sometimes by large institutions like particular churches. On a more mundane level there is rubbish and waste left all over town by the settled community every single day.
Travellers of many backgrounds are over-represented in prisons, but there is nothing that I have found to date that shows they are more likely to commit a criminal offence - similarly non-white communities are also over-represented in UK prisons.
The Roma and others were targeted in exactly the same way as Jewish people in Nazi Germany, but are not thought about in the same way here, it's one of the last "acceptable" racisms
When people were cleared off the land in Scotland some emigrated, some moved south and some became itinerant workers, doing seasonal agricultural work - we grew up with the word "tink" as a pejorative.

Anyway, none of this was the point I was trying to make, it was only that I hadn't heard anyone raise their voice in defence of travellers over what Diane Abbott had written

I refer you back to the first paragraph then. By being more a part of regular, settled society other minority groups have members who've risen to prominence in various fields and are better positioned to speak out against writings like Abbott's where they appear and due to being in society more the wider populace has more experience with said other minorities. Where they have a bad one there's enough intermingling that they'll likely have had it countered by good and so there's a more receptive audience to objections and rebuttals leaders in politics or the media might raise.

[Slick]

The BBC seems determined for us to think that whether Diane Abbott stands as an MP in the election is headline news.

I couldn't give a shit.

I watched her speech on the steps, she's well on the road to dementia in my opinion. Might be Parkinson's, the poor thing.

She was forced to reveal she has type 2 diabetes in 2017 after press coverage of her health issues at the time. That could explain why she sometimes appears confused and forgetful, something that does seem to have been a problem for her over the last 6 or 7 years.

Ideally she should have retired a while ago on health grounds, and I suspect that the 'deal' the Labour party was trying to agree with her was that she would be reinstated but then retire before the election, but that has all backfired.

Fair to say she is/was an absolute pisshead as well.

[Slick]

When I read what Abbott had written I thought it was ignorant and very ill-conceived. However, my reaction was tempered by my white man's guilt over what to tell a black woman what constitutes prejudice and racism so I kept my mouth shut on it.

There are quite a few folk though, including a couple on the news last night who seem to want her forgiven for everything she does because she was the first black female MP - a remarkable achievement that should be celebrated notwithstanding.

[Slick]

When I read what Abbott had written I thought it was ignorant and very ill-conceived. However, my reaction was tempered by my white man's guilt over what to tell a black woman what constitutes prejudice and racism so I kept my mouth shut on it.

It did strike me however that whilst the anti-Semitism was pointed out, I don't recall many speaking up for Gypsies and travellers, it may be of course just that I missed those that did.

I saw a post on FB recently stating that a host of caravans had pulled up and parked at a site near my town, numerous posts complained about this and told each other to double lock their windows and doors, that thefts had increased in the locality (no numbers or police figures, just that thefts had been going up, even seemingly in the weeks prior to the travellers' arrival)

If someone told another to lock up their doors and windows because "The Jews" were here or "The Blacks" were here, I wager there would be a different response to the posts

The relationship between the populous and Travellers and other minority groups is very different. Jewish, black, Asian and others besides all live as part of society whereas Travellers are mostly visible due to their rejection of it. Someone might have a bad experience with a Jew or a Pakistani person, but chances are they'll also have some good ones that help prevent falling into homogenising the whole group because they exist in our communities and function as members of those communities whether it's friends, family, colleagues or workers you have multiple interactions with. All those other groups have prominent public figures, be it in politics or the media to lead the charge against writings like Abbot's because they embrace and are part of society. A lot of people only experience Travellers when they pitch up in town, take over a car park, park or field and move on having left it in an absolute state. Plenty will have more direct poor experience too.

Sad to say, but the only positive experience I've had with Travellers was just one boy I taught and it's basically that he was normally behaved (when present, he missed months and months of school at a time to help out with his family's horses). There was a small group of Travellers at the school and they were all in and out the whole time (which I have issues with, it's clear they weren't doing any work while absent, nor were attempts made to catch up. Other pupils and their parents face sanctions for missing even a fraction of the school time), frankly we preferred it when they weren't present because they were far and away the most disruptive pupils, even when compared to others with diagnosed behavioural issues, with an astounding resistance to even the mildest exercise of authority. Simple requests like putting a football away so the lesson could start or to stop wandering around the room would result in a drag out row which ate chunks out of the lesson and ultimately lead to removal. When I was a teenager there was a group that would come into Guildford quite regularly and they just started fights out of the blue. You'd be sitting with your friends in a park and next thing you know there's this group of boys trying to paw at the girls in your group or just generally getting in faces for no particular reason. Working in a shop in town there after uni Traveller kids were constantly in and out trying to shoplift or just being disruptive by running around the store trashing displays. Security barred them and had issues with the parents coming down to issue threats. When I worked at the Surrey uni campus one of the car parks was occupied by Travellers for a couple of weeks until the police moved them on and they left it covered in shit and rubbish. Basically all the stereotypical stuff you read about in the media and hear from others and with very little to provide a counterbalance

While we're right to resist homogenised characterisations of groups, our direct experience and hearing the same stuff from others over and over will shape views.

I've had different experiences with different groups to be honest. One group used to visit the area near where I lived for a few weeks every year and left devastation every time, local crime went through the roof, local pubs became no go zones. A lady who lived near the site put an outside tap at the end of her drive, with her own money, so they had a supply of water and they still ransacked her house when she went away. On the other hand, one time with the same group my car broke down and I limped to where they were stopped, they couldn't have been more helpful and fixed it for me.

About a mile from where I lived they put in a permanent site and the folk from there were brilliant. Spent many nights in the country local with them, went to darts nights at their camp etc etc.

[C69]

A prominent red wall Tory MP for Bolton North East defects.

[Hal Jordan]

That will play well with the usual suspects....

[Sandstorm]

A prominent red wall Tory MP for Bolton North East defects.

Defects = Tory going to get fucked at the next election and bails now to avoid the embarrassment. I think it’s lame. Just announce you’re not going to stand and get out of all politics for the next 5-10 years.

[Paddington Bear]

Disagree, it’s a reasonable barometer for how Starmer intends to govern

In what way?

Abbott is a loon and a liability, if he’s squeezing her and her fellow travellers out he’s serious about governing from the centre. If he’s not, he’ll be pulled into their batshit rabbit holes. The same in reverse happened with the Tories

[fishfoodie]

Disagree, it’s a reasonable barometer for how Starmer intends to govern

In what way?

Abbott is a loon and a liability, if he’s squeezing her and her fellow travellers out he’s serious about governing from the centre. If he’s not, he’ll be pulled into their batshit rabbit holes. The same in reverse happened with the Tories

The ultras in the Tory Party were able to Organise for long enough to change the direction of the Party, the nutters in Labour couldn't organise a nun shoot in a nunnery, they prefer to shot at each other.