Worcester and Wasps GONE?

[Kawazaki]

I've got news for you, no billionaires give a toss especially ones from ruling families of middle-east oil states guilty of appalling human rights atrocities. But hey, they have far more billions than a Brit who makes cheap tat to flog in warehouse stores so we don't really care as long as the money comes in.

Where did I say the Saudis care? If Newcastle fans started singing about Yemen or Khasoggi they'd be far more upset than Ashley ever was. Because they're buying Newcastle for reputation, not to squeeze every merch and TV deal penny from the club.

So to summarise;

• Saudi money ok because they only want soft power and international prestige to mask their appalling human rights violations in exchange for their money.

• Ashley money bad because he wanted a return on his investment.

We are down the rabbit hole here.

[Tichtheid]

Kitchener is signing a short term injury cover contract as Swinson did and perhaps he could turn it into a longer term contract as Swinson did.

Fair dos

I thought there must be something other than the "never-realised potential"

Good luck to the lad

[Kawazaki]

Perhaps this could be a "Swinson" moment for Kitchener, he has never fully realised the full potential he showed as an U20?

Swinson did okay before he went to Saracens, in 137 appearances he helped Glasgow become champions and twice runner-up, plus he won 38 caps for Scotland.

He was good at Sarries, no doubt, but it wasn't like he was under-achieving beforehand.

Poorly worded from me.
Kitchener is signing a short term injury cover contract as Swinson did and perhaps he could turn it into a longer term contract as Swinson did. Though as you rightly say, Swinson already had a pretty strong CV before he signed for Sarries

It was also unfinished business for Swinson as he was a Saracens fan as a kid, grew up watching them play (he might have even played minis for them).

[I like neeps]

I've got news for you, no billionaires give a toss especially ones from ruling families of middle-east oil states guilty of appalling human rights atrocities. But hey, they have far more billions than a Brit who makes cheap tat to flog in warehouse stores so we don't really care as long as the money comes in.

Where did I say the Saudis care? If Newcastle fans started singing about Yemen or Khasoggi they'd be far more upset than Ashley ever was. Because they're buying Newcastle for reputation, not to squeeze every merch and TV deal penny from the club.

So to summarise;

• Saudi money ok because they only want soft power and international prestige to mask their appalling human rights violations in exchange for their money.

• Ashley money bad because he wanted a return on his investment.

We are down the rabbit hole here.

To summarise:

The Saudis are bad club owners because all pstrostate oligarchs are bad club owners.

Ashley is a bad club owner because his plan was never to make a profit by improving club performance but leech off external factors he had nothing to do with.

[I like neeps]

He paid off the £100m debt. Fans don't see that of course but he cleared it. I think once the abuse started, he had the same kind of reaction to them as you and I would have, he likely thought, 'fuck you'. He was wealthy enough to keep it ticking over with the minimum investment waiting until somebody was willing to cover his total losses. And even at £300m, I think that only just about washed his face after 14 years.

Mike Ashley didn't become a billionaire whose entire modus operandi is squeezing every single penny out of low cost clothing and taking over distressed assets by being someone who cared at all what people think. The Newcastle fans hating him is irrelevant. He had no interest in the club as another other than a vehicle for money making.

And he will have made money, a 100m loan of which 30m he'd already paid back to himself from running Newcastle as profitable for most of his time there. And there's the unknowable amount he made on turning the club into a vassal for Sports Direct advertising.

His success at Newcastle was mainly the top6 lifting all boats in England. Someone like him will bankrupt a rugby club in no time at all because you can't rely on a huge fanbase and other clubs generating TV revenue.

If you've got a better alternative I'm all ears, but looks like he's the only thing standing between Wasps and going under

He'll be the end of wasps, it'll just take longer to kill them off. His interest is the infrastructure surrounding Wasps - welcome to no investment and the bare minimum. There's no profit to be got from rugby TV deals, not much merch to sell. He'll pay them no attention and cut everything to an absolute bare minimum. Will be like Newcastle Falcons without the community buy-in.

[Paddington Bear]

Mike Ashley didn't become a billionaire whose entire modus operandi is squeezing every single penny out of low cost clothing and taking over distressed assets by being someone who cared at all what people think. The Newcastle fans hating him is irrelevant. He had no interest in the club as another other than a vehicle for money making.

And he will have made money, a 100m loan of which 30m he'd already paid back to himself from running Newcastle as profitable for most of his time there. And there's the unknowable amount he made on turning the club into a vassal for Sports Direct advertising.

His success at Newcastle was mainly the top6 lifting all boats in England. Someone like him will bankrupt a rugby club in no time at all because you can't rely on a huge fanbase and other clubs generating TV revenue.

If you've got a better alternative I'm all ears, but looks like he's the only thing standing between Wasps and going under

He'll be the end of wasps, it'll just take longer to kill them off. His interest is the infrastructure surrounding Wasps - welcome to no investment and the bare minimum. There's no profit to be got from rugby TV deals, not much merch to sell. He'll pay them no attention and cut everything to an absolute bare minimum. Will be like Newcastle Falcons without the community buy-in.

And Wasps survive. The options are zero sum at this stage, there's no top bloke millionaire rugby lover business guru riding in on a white horse. It's Ashley, someone of his ilk, or goodbye Wasps.

[sockwithaticket]

Mike Ashley didn't become a billionaire whose entire modus operandi is squeezing every single penny out of low cost clothing and taking over distressed assets by being someone who cared at all what people think. The Newcastle fans hating him is irrelevant. He had no interest in the club as another other than a vehicle for money making.

And he will have made money, a 100m loan of which 30m he'd already paid back to himself from running Newcastle as profitable for most of his time there. And there's the unknowable amount he made on turning the club into a vassal for Sports Direct advertising.

His success at Newcastle was mainly the top6 lifting all boats in England. Someone like him will bankrupt a rugby club in no time at all because you can't rely on a huge fanbase and other clubs generating TV revenue.

If you've got a better alternative I'm all ears, but looks like he's the only thing standing between Wasps and going under

He'll be the end of wasps, it'll just take longer to kill them off. His interest is the infrastructure surrounding Wasps - welcome to no investment and the bare minimum. There's no profit to be got from rugby TV deals, not much merch to sell. He'll pay them no attention and cut everything to an absolute bare minimum. Will be like Newcastle Falcons without the community buy-in.

For the sake of survival, I'm sure the club will accept that. They also don't need much investment in the short to term, a brand new training facility was unveiled at the beginning of last season and unlike Worcester we haven't been having issues making payroll.

I would prefer it if there were a more benevolent rich/wealthy figure available to bail us out, but there isn't and I can't blame those in charge of the club for doing their jobs by taking whatever available route to survival presents itself.

[I like neeps]

If you've got a better alternative I'm all ears, but looks like he's the only thing standing between Wasps and going under

He'll be the end of wasps, it'll just take longer to kill them off. His interest is the infrastructure surrounding Wasps - welcome to no investment and the bare minimum. There's no profit to be got from rugby TV deals, not much merch to sell. He'll pay them no attention and cut everything to an absolute bare minimum. Will be like Newcastle Falcons without the community buy-in.

And Wasps survive. The options are zero sum at this stage, there's no top bloke millionaire rugby lover business guru riding in on a white horse. It's Ashley, someone of his ilk, or goodbye Wasps.

I think it's goodbye Wasps anyway if Ashley gets them as part of the Coventry City/Casino/Stadium deal. No chance he'll even try to make them half decent and no chance fans will turn up to watch a transplanted club achieve nothing in an empty stadium.

We're all pretending for some reason Ashley did anything to earn his profit at Newcastle when he didn't. Tottenham Hotspur have shown even a shrewd owner who only wants to sell the club can create a formidable commercial proposition. Ashley did the bare minimum, didn't innovate past using NUFC as a merchandise vassal for Sports Direct, didn't try anything. Just sat there as the oligarchs and the Americans invested countless money which generated vast TV deals from international viewers who want to watch Chelsea and didn't care one jot about Newcastle. He won't do anything to turn Wasps into a profitable entity. He'll cut costs to the bone and do things with the casino etc. English rugby doesn't have the popularity of the premier league and wasps don't have the fanbase of Newcastle so drop by drop the club will die before he liquidates them as a strain on his investment.

[Margin__Walker]

If it was my club, and I had the binary choice of the club ceasing to exist as a professional entity (or at least a premiership entity) goodbye and the Mike Ashley goodbye, I'd go with the latter.

[Paddington Bear]

He'll be the end of wasps, it'll just take longer to kill them off. His interest is the infrastructure surrounding Wasps - welcome to no investment and the bare minimum. There's no profit to be got from rugby TV deals, not much merch to sell. He'll pay them no attention and cut everything to an absolute bare minimum. Will be like Newcastle Falcons without the community buy-in.

And Wasps survive. The options are zero sum at this stage, there's no top bloke millionaire rugby lover business guru riding in on a white horse. It's Ashley, someone of his ilk, or goodbye Wasps.

I think it's goodbye Wasps anyway if Ashley gets them as part of the Coventry City/Casino/Stadium deal. No chance he'll even try to make them half decent and no chance fans will turn up to watch a transplanted club achieve nothing in an empty stadium.

We're all pretending for some reason Ashley did anything to earn his profit at Newcastle when he didn't. Tottenham Hotspur have shown even a shrewd owner who only wants to sell the club can create a formidable commercial proposition. Ashley did the bare minimum, didn't innovate past using NUFC as a merchandise vassal for Sports Direct, didn't try anything. Just sat there as the oligarchs and the Americans invested countless money which generated vast TV deals from international viewers who want to watch Chelsea and didn't care one jot about Newcastle. He won't do anything to turn Wasps into a profitable entity. He'll cut costs to the bone and do things with the casino etc. English rugby doesn't have the popularity of the premier league and wasps don't have the fanbase of Newcastle so drop by drop the club will die before he liquidates them as a strain on his investment.

The Ashley option, even if I accept your reading of his motives (I don't totally) allows something to turn up for Wasps. It's that or goodbye now, I'd bite his hand off if I were them.

[I like neeps]

And Wasps survive. The options are zero sum at this stage, there's no top bloke millionaire rugby lover business guru riding in on a white horse. It's Ashley, someone of his ilk, or goodbye Wasps.

I think it's goodbye Wasps anyway if Ashley gets them as part of the Coventry City/Casino/Stadium deal. No chance he'll even try to make them half decent and no chance fans will turn up to watch a transplanted club achieve nothing in an empty stadium.

We're all pretending for some reason Ashley did anything to earn his profit at Newcastle when he didn't. Tottenham Hotspur have shown even a shrewd owner who only wants to sell the club can create a formidable commercial proposition. Ashley did the bare minimum, didn't innovate past using NUFC as a merchandise vassal for Sports Direct, didn't try anything. Just sat there as the oligarchs and the Americans invested countless money which generated vast TV deals from international viewers who want to watch Chelsea and didn't care one jot about Newcastle. He won't do anything to turn Wasps into a profitable entity. He'll cut costs to the bone and do things with the casino etc. English rugby doesn't have the popularity of the premier league and wasps don't have the fanbase of Newcastle so drop by drop the club will die before he liquidates them as a strain on his investment.

The Ashley option, even if I accept your reading of his motives (I don't totally) allows something to turn up for Wasps. It's that or goodbye now, I'd bite his hand off if I were them.

I'm sure they would but it won't be a happy ending.

[Kawazaki]

Where did I say the Saudis care? If Newcastle fans started singing about Yemen or Khasoggi they'd be far more upset than Ashley ever was. Because they're buying Newcastle for reputation, not to squeeze every merch and TV deal penny from the club.

So to summarise;

• Saudi money ok because they only want soft power and international prestige to mask their appalling human rights violations in exchange for their money.

• Ashley money bad because he wanted a return on his investment.

We are down the rabbit hole here.

To summarise:

The Saudis are bad club owners because all pstrostate oligarchs are bad club owners.

Ashley is a bad club owner because his plan was never to make a profit by improving club performance but leech off external factors he had nothing to do with.

Ashley ran Newcastle within its means. I think in the grand scheme of club owners, Newcastle could have done a lot worse, for example, the chancers who Ashley bought the club from!

[Kawazaki]

And Wasps survive. The options are zero sum at this stage, there's no top bloke millionaire rugby lover business guru riding in on a white horse. It's Ashley, someone of his ilk, or goodbye Wasps.

It's also worth remembering that the current Wasps owner has made a complete arse of this move and opportunity. Derek Richardson seems to be getting a free pass from everyone that he hasn't done anything wrong and it's all the fault of Covid. Wasps moved to Coventry in 2014, not 2019.

[clydecloggie]

Wasps pull out of this weekend's game against Exeter, citing likelihood of going into administration in the next few days.

The end is nigh.


edit: Exeter, not Sarries

[JM2K6]

Yup

[Torquemada 1420]

Rugby in turmoil. Been much hot air (not just in Eng) about the game needing to be placed on more realistic economic footings, but it's all too little too late. This picture already happened in France and the likes of Dax, Colomiers, Biarritz, Albi, Narbonne, Beziers, Bourgoin, Auch, Montauban etc have disappeared from the top table down to varying depths of oblivion. The difference in France was a number of large conurbations with heavy backers were able to step in (Toulon, Racing, Montpellier) to the void and even then, the position remained precarious such that even Toulouse has had to do much cutting of cloth. Wales is f**ked. Aus is f**ked. NZ had to totally overhaul NPC.

One would hope this would be a reality check for the game globally. But somehow I doubt it.

[Torquemada 1420]

And as for this:
"While the companies within the Group all represent strong and viable businesses, the reality is that they have insufficient cash at this time to continue to fund operations until these complex negotiations have concluded."
Errrr..... strong, viable businesses do not run out of cash. The definition of an unviable business is one with insufficient cashflow.

[PornDog]

Has there been any statement or action from CVC at all during this whole episode?

[Slick]

Has there been any statement or action from CVC at all during this whole episode?

Nope, just collecting their 27%, or whatever it is.

You have to assume that they have clear ideas on how many clubs they want in the Premiership and it isn't 12, 13 or 14 - or presumably 11 - or surely, they would be doing something to help these teams in distress.

[Kawazaki]

My suspicions that the Wasps's owner, Derek Richardson, has been getting an easy ride compared to the criticism of the custodianship of certain other club owners is starting to flesh out, albeit slowly;

Wasps previous debt has also been described to Telegraph Sport as unbelievable and horribly managed, regardless of selling stadium naming rights and return of Coventry City FC,

https://archive.ph/IiQsi

[Margin__Walker]

Irish/Wasps merger speculation on the front of TRP today. Proper hunger games vibes about this season, with whoever's left standing able to participate in whatever comes next.

[sockwithaticket]

Bill Sweeney throwing in behind the idea of a 10 team league.

https://archive.ph/2w3e7

Probably helps support notions of a merger. Wouldn't be surprised if the RFU are hoping for enough clubs to go bust/merge/whatever else that a 10 team league becomes the default anyway and then they won't be prevailed upon to put any additional support into the Championship.

[Margin__Walker]

Yep pretty much.

Even paper talk of two leagues of ten teams sounds like fantasy to me.

Clubs are spending c.100% of their revenue on salaries. It's mental and whilst it may work for the handful with super wealthy backers, this has to be painful for even the traditionally stable and well supported clubs.

[Niegs]

Is the genie fully out of the bottle where a Southern Hem-style regional franchise system is concerned?

People talk about there needing to be fewer games for player welfare, yet clubs 'need' the extra games to pay the wages/keep the lights on.

6-8 regional franchises would do for EQPs, I think, but is it even possible without the established clubs vetoing/suing?

[Torquemada 1420]

As well as Europe, what the hell happens to season ticket holders?

[Torquemada 1420]

As well as Europe, what the hell happens to season ticket holders?

What does the administration mean for Wasps season ticket and match ticket holders?

Unfortunately all future Wasps matches are currently cancelled and therefore match tickets, season tickets and hospitality packages cannot be honoured. Wasps is unable to provide any refunds.

If you paid by credit or debit card, you may be able to get your money back by claiming a refund from your card issuer. Please contact your card issuer as soon as you can if this may apply to you. Further information including on time limits that apply is available from UK Finance.

If you are unable to claim a refund from a card provider you can register a claim against Wasps. Details of how to register a claim will be provided to ticket holders. Registering a claim in this way does not necessarily mean that you will receive any payment. That will be determined at a later date and you will be contacted again if there is any prospect of a payment.

[Margin__Walker]

Administration confirmed for Wasps.

[Torquemada 1420]

Administration confirmed for Wasps.

Yup. Posted the links on the English Rugby Thread
https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/wasps-hold ... statement/

https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/andrew-she ... ober-2022/

[Biffer]

As well as Europe, what the hell happens to season ticket holders?

What does the administration mean for Wasps season ticket and match ticket holders?

Unfortunately all future Wasps matches are currently cancelled and therefore match tickets, season tickets and hospitality packages cannot be honoured. Wasps is unable to provide any refunds.

If you paid by credit or debit card, you may be able to get your money back by claiming a refund from your card issuer. Please contact your card issuer as soon as you can if this may apply to you. Further information including on time limits that apply is available from UK Finance.

If you are unable to claim a refund from a card provider you can register a claim against Wasps. Details of how to register a claim will be provided to ticket holders. Registering a claim in this way does not necessarily mean that you will receive any payment. That will be determined at a later date and you will be contacted again if there is any prospect of a payment.

Yeah, they’re creditors, and treated the same way as anyone else who’s owed money or services.

[clydecloggie]

As well as Europe, what the hell happens to season ticket holders?

What does the administration mean for Wasps season ticket and match ticket holders?

Unfortunately all future Wasps matches are currently cancelled and therefore match tickets, season tickets and hospitality packages cannot be honoured. Wasps is unable to provide any refunds.

If you paid by credit or debit card, you may be able to get your money back by claiming a refund from your card issuer. Please contact your card issuer as soon as you can if this may apply to you. Further information including on time limits that apply is available from UK Finance.

If you are unable to claim a refund from a card provider you can register a claim against Wasps. Details of how to register a claim will be provided to ticket holders. Registering a claim in this way does not necessarily mean that you will receive any payment. That will be determined at a later date and you will be contacted again if there is any prospect of a payment.

Yeah, they’re creditors, and treated the same way as anyone else who’s owed money or services.

But at the back of the queue. If, for instance, HMRC are also creditors, the chances of season ticket holders seeing any of their money back are pretty remote.

[sturginho]

Administration confirmed for Wasps.

Sad news all round

[sockwithaticket]

It was obviously coming, but even confirmation of the expected is a bit of a gut punch. I've been supporting the club for half my life and feel pretty bereft at the prospect of us folding. Can only imagine what a sickener it is for all the staff to suddenly be out of work like that, presumably having begun the season not expecting it to go differently to any other.

[Kawazaki]

It was obviously coming, but even confirmation of the expected is a bit of a gut punch. I've been supporting the club for half my life and feel pretty bereft at the prospect of us folding. Can only imagine what a sickener it is for all the staff to suddenly be out of work like that, presumably having begun the season not expecting it to go differently to any other.

Ah nuts, sorry mate. I've got a soft spot for Wasps, it's always the next result I look for.

What's shocked me is the speed it escalated. It actually feels more sudden than Worcester - into administration and immediately everyone is sacked off.

I think Derek Richardson has let you down if I'm honest. The opportunity in Coventry was a good one but the execution has been terrible, particularly in the way that the chance to reach out to the football club was handled. I'm sure more detail who come out but initial reports are that the debt was very badly managed, finances just a mess. This can't have been unknown either when they were offering players like Vincent Koch £100k more to join them. That's really not good.

[sockwithaticket]

It was obviously coming, but even confirmation of the expected is a bit of a gut punch. I've been supporting the club for half my life and feel pretty bereft at the prospect of us folding. Can only imagine what a sickener it is for all the staff to suddenly be out of work like that, presumably having begun the season not expecting it to go differently to any other.

Ah nuts, sorry mate. I've got a soft spot for Wasps, it's always the next result I look for.

What's shocked me is the speed it escalated. It actually feels more sudden than Worcester - into administration and immediately everyone is sacked off.

I think Derek Richardson has let you down if I'm honest. The opportunity in Coventry was a good one but the execution has been terrible, particularly in the way that the chance to reach out to the football club was handled. I'm sure more detail who come out but initial reports are that the debt was very badly managed, finances just a mess. This can't have been unknown either when they were offering players like Vincent Koch £100k more to join them. That's really not good.

Cheers, I know we all give each other stick on here in line with our affiliations, but it's nice to be part of and it won't quite be the same without a team involved in the league.

We do seem to have escaped the level of media attention and daily revelations that came out of Worcester and when we did hear something it was always quite measured with the focus being on various offers or rescue packages that were on the table. It all sounded vaguely positive, but clearly not positive enough.

It's clearly been managed with the players and other staff fairly reasonably as none of them have been openly speaking out as we saw with Worcester. As you say, though, there's surely more to come out about this and that may change how silent anyone's willing to be. It might not be quite as overtly scummy as the dealings of the Worcester owners, but there's clearly been some mismanagement to get us to this point and starting the season completely normally with this situation obviously being a possibility seems very callous towards everyone on the payroll.

[Oxbow]

It was obviously coming, but even confirmation of the expected is a bit of a gut punch. I've been supporting the club for half my life and feel pretty bereft at the prospect of us folding. Can only imagine what a sickener it is for all the staff to suddenly be out of work like that, presumably having begun the season not expecting it to go differently to any other.

Sad to see a historic club like Wasps go down like this, you have my sympathies, you did take the cockend that is Matt Dawson off our hands after all.

[Happyhooker]

Just popping in to have a look at this thred.

I'm fucking gutted, but the writing on has been on the wall for a while. I mentioned it on one of my last visits here a while ago, but was told not to worry by Raggs as we'd just signed Koch so were obviously okay financially.

Oh well, will sit here with a malt and reminisce about filthy training nights up at Sudbury far too many years ago.

[Uncle fester]

This news is a bit shit.

[lemonhead]

Exceedingly shit news.

Was lucky enough to be at the game with MRSC London last December and always relished our matchups over the years.

Gutted for club and fans.

[Tichtheid]

Launchbury to Quins, apparently

[Paddington Bear]

English rugby won’t be the same without them. Hopefully there will be a resolution/phoenix before too long