NPR

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:52 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:27 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 8:31 am

Wasps offered a player money they knew they had no hope of being able to pay. That fact is just flying over your head regardless of where they were recruiting the player from.

I don't know if Wasps knew they were going to go bust. You said "Saracens could afford to keep Koch within the lower cap. That's the point." - but there's no proof that they could. We simply don't know what Koch was asking for. It might well have been the case that Sarries told him that they could only offer him x and that he was never going to accept anything near that amount.

You have to understand that I am not criticising Saracens over Koch, or defending Wasps for their club going bust. But it's entirely possible that when Wasps went in for Koch almost a year ago that they had no idea of the reckoning that awaited them. It's extremely unlikely they signed him under false pretences. And Koch is a hell of a player; given he was available I very much doubt other sides wouldn't have been willing to offer similar money, and I very much doubt Saracens would've behaved any differently. Koch would still have left the club and signed for someone else under the cap.

Wasps lost some big wage players at the end of the season. Nothing they did with their recruitment was out of the ordinary. By focusing on the player who left Saracens you're just coming across as being a bit bitter about Saracens losing him, rather than any genuine concern for the plight of all the Wasps players. Including their other signings like John Ryan, Odendaal, Haydon-Wood, etc.

If I supported a club that John Ryan, Odendaal and Haydon-Wood came from then I'd likely refer to them. It's quite normal for people to reference and frame events that impact or relate to things that they have some investment in, be it real or emotional.

The figure I heard was that Saracens couldn't get anywhere near the Wasps offer which was circa £100k a year more. It's naive in the extreme given what we know that Wasps weren't aware of the parlous condition of their finances when they made that offer to Koch. Of course you might be arguing in bad faith because it's Saracens and you're a bitter Quins fan. I hope not but I suspect that's nearer the truth.

So you genuinely believe that in November 2021 when Wasps were negotiating with Koch that when they offered him a contract they knew they weren't going to be able to stick to it? What's your evidence for this?

Again, you keep banging on about this £100k more. Firstly, unless it was reported by a primary source, you have to admit that that figure could be entirely made up. Secondly, it's reasonable to assume that Wasps were offering more than Saracens were willing to pay, but in isolation that doesn't mean anything. Given that it was widely reported that even the Vunipolas were offered significantly reduced deals, it looks a little bit like this:

- Koch is very well paid at Saracens, commensurate with his status as a high quality international prop
- His contract is coming to an end and negotiations begin with Saracens
- Saracens, having been through the relegation season and dealing with the impact of Covid, the need to trim their squad for salary cap reasons, and wanting to keep hold of their core players in a squad absolutely stuffed with internationals, offer him a much reduced deal
- Koch isn't happy with this and is receiving offers from other clubs
- Wasps offer more than Saracens were willing to offer, Koch likes what they're pitching and signs
- Saracens sign a couple of younger tightheads, one an international, and carry on just fine

This whole "100k more!" repetition seems like an attempt to make out that the deal was somehow nefarious, rather than Koch being a victim of a team that wasn't willing to keep paying him the same amount as before. It doesn't actually matter what Wasps offered him as it they had space in the cap, and were losing a bunch of high earners. Saracens chose not to keep Koch. Teams do this every year. It's really not the story here.

If the accusation is that they knew they wouldn't be able to pay his wages then Koch's signing is pretty meaningless, because it means every single player and every single employee got deliberately fucked and the scandal is even worse than reported. But without evidence of this, then there's nothing to complain about Wasps signing Koch. It's not like Koch's wages are what broke the club. It's not like they broke the salary cap to sign him. It's not like they had financial power that Saracens couldn't match. It's just another regular transfer, and not worth banging on about or trying to make into some sort of conspiracy or evidence of wrongdoing.

I'll politely disagree. The moon isn't made of cheese and the world isn't flat either btw JM.

And we have plenty of evidence for both of those assertions.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 19, 2022 10:07 pm It's far from moronic to point out the pro game was in a much healthier state in 2014 before a couple of clubs decided to wage war on the others, leading to the salary cap getting pushed up, clubs losing money trying to compete, and one club in particular warping the market. The effect is very clear (and who gives a fuck what Foode says?) and you can draw a direct line from the changes to the salary to the current piss-poor finances of nearly every club.

It's not just Wasps and Worcs. Almost the entire league is in a shit financial state. The financial arms race has ruined the hard fought gains of sides that had crawled towards breaking even (or even profitability, in some cases).

Absolutely this. The same thing happened in France (although no rules broken) and the demise of the likes of Colomies, Beziers and half a dozen others can be laid right at the door of the likes of Toulon, Montpellier and Racing throwing shedloads of money to achieve success. It's an absolutely sh*t model which throws aside meritocracy (player development, coaching skills etc) in favour of the largest wallet. I know Toulouse fans will baulk at this but I've always argued their path to national success was at least partly paved by having by far the biggest budget.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 8:31 am Wasps offered a player money they knew they had no hope of being able to pay.

We all hear this but explain to me how that differs from most other Prem clubs? I get that you've used the term "no hope" which heightens the malfeasance in your eyes because the end was nigh**, but from a commercial or moral perspective, to me, ANY spending in excess of a sustainable model is equally egregious (ironic given that Government is leading the entire UK on exactly that model).

** Which also presumes it was known the end was imminent.

At the end of 2021 when Wasps were offering these contracts, they were about 5 months from the redemption date of the £35m bond. That's one way they differed markedly from other clubs.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:05 pm At the end of 2021 when Wasps were offering these contracts, they were about 5 months from the redemption date of the £35m bond. That's one way they differed markedly from other clubs.

One debt entry upon a balance sheet. In absentia of context, it's nothing more than a pointer (I grant that £35m is a big no in rugby) and not definitive. What is the net position of any of the other clubs?

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:58 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:05 pm At the end of 2021 when Wasps were offering these contracts, they were about 5 months from the redemption date of the £35m bond. That's one way they differed markedly from other clubs.

One debt entry upon a balance sheet. In absentia of context, it's nothing more than a pointer (I grant that £35m is a big no in rugby) and not definitive. What is the net position of any of the other clubs?

None have got a £35m bond redemption date in the pipeline.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 2:16 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:58 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:05 pm At the end of 2021 when Wasps were offering these contracts, they were about 5 months from the redemption date of the £35m bond. That's one way they differed markedly from other clubs.

One debt entry upon a balance sheet. In absentia of context, it's nothing more than a pointer (I grant that £35m is a big no in rugby) and not definitive. What is the net position of any of the other clubs?

None have got a £35m bond redemption date in the pipeline.

Which entirely sidesteps the question.

As an adjunct, I was told on Wednesday by someone reasonably connected with the Not Nots that some sort of discussions were being held that day regarding them engaging with Wasps in some format.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:40 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 2:16 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:58 pm
One debt entry upon a balance sheet. In absentia of context, it's nothing more than a pointer (I grant that £35m is a big no in rugby) and not definitive. What is the net position of any of the other clubs?

None have got a £35m bond redemption date in the pipeline.

Which entirely sidesteps the question.

Not really. Describing the impending maturity of a £35m bond as merely a 'debt entry upon a balance sheet' got the contemptible reply it deserved.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:42 am As an adjunct, I was told on Wednesday by someone reasonably connected with the Not Nots that some sort of discussions were being held that day regarding them engaging with Wasps in some format.

Who are the Not Nots again?

Slick wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:02 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:42 am As an adjunct, I was told on Wednesday by someone reasonably connected with the Not Nots that some sort of discussions were being held that day regarding them engaging with Wasps in some format.

Who are the Not Nots again?

London Irish. Not Not's because for a long time they were neither based in London nor did they have many/any Irish or Irish heritage players.


Interesting that you've heard that Torq. A merger was explicitly denounced last week, but I suppose there's an awful lot of room outside that for some other type of arrangement.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:21 am

Slick wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:02 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:42 am As an adjunct, I was told on Wednesday by someone reasonably connected with the Not Nots that some sort of discussions were being held that day regarding them engaging with Wasps in some format.

Who are the Not Nots again?

London Irish. Not Not's because for a long time they were neither based in London nor did they have many/any Irish or Irish heritage players.


Interesting that you've heard that Torq. A merger was explicitly denounced last week, but I suppose there's an awful lot of room outside that for some other type of arrangement.

Yeah. The wording seemed deliberately aimed at avoiding the term merger.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:52 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:40 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 2:16 pm


None have got a £35m bond redemption date in the pipeline.

Which entirely sidesteps the question.

Not really. Describing the impending maturity of a £35m bond as merely a 'debt entry upon a balance sheet' got the contemptible reply it deserved.

Point to where I used the term "merely". You do revel in deliberately misrepresenting opinions that don't fit your crafted view of the world.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:21 am

Slick wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:02 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:42 am As an adjunct, I was told on Wednesday by someone reasonably connected with the Not Nots that some sort of discussions were being held that day regarding them engaging with Wasps in some format.

Who are the Not Nots again?

London Irish. Not Not's because for a long time they were neither based in London nor did they have many/any Irish or Irish heritage players.


Interesting that you've heard that Torq. A merger was explicitly denounced last week, but I suppose there's an awful lot of room outside that for some other type of arrangement.

Oh yes, thank you

Clubs linked to Wasp players update:

Jack Willis - Bristol Bears
Aflie Barbeary - Bordeaux Begles plus 'talks' with four Premiership clubs
Charlie Atkinson - Leicester Tigers
Vincent Koch, Nizaam Carr, Michael van Vuuren - South African URC clubs
Burger Odendaal - Sale Sharks
Joe Launchbury - Harlequins
Paolo Odogwu - Benetton Treviso ( Would likely go for Italy over England if this happens)
Dan Frost - Exeter Chiefs
Robin Hislop - Saracens

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:57 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:52 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:40 am
Which entirely sidesteps the question.

Not really. Describing the impending maturity of a £35m bond as merely a 'debt entry upon a balance sheet' got the contemptible reply it deserved.

Point to where I used the term "merely". You do revel in deliberately misrepresenting opinions that don't fit your crafted view of the world.

I didn't imply you used the term. The way you described an impending £35m debt maturity on a balance sheet as if it was perfectly normal to see it right there just above the entry for company paperclips was amusingly glib.

.

SaintK wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:38 pm Aflie Barbeary - Bordeaux Begles plus 'talks' with four Premiership clubs

I know he's still young but I can't help thinking his best career path was missed many years ago. I think he'll end up on the 'What could have been' list for England unfortunately.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:42 am As an adjunct, I was told on Wednesday by someone reasonably connected with the Not Nots that some sort of discussions were being held that day regarding them engaging with Wasps in some format.

What would a merger actually entail?

Niegs wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:59 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:42 am As an adjunct, I was told on Wednesday by someone reasonably connected with the Not Nots that some sort of discussions were being held that day regarding them engaging with Wasps in some format.

What would a merger actually entail?

The Wasps CEO said on Tuesday there was absolutely no truth in this story. And he added that it wouldn't work anyway.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:12 pm

Niegs wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:59 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:42 am As an adjunct, I was told on Wednesday by someone reasonably connected with the Not Nots that some sort of discussions were being held that day regarding them engaging with Wasps in some format.

What would a merger actually entail?

The Wasps CEO said on Tuesday there was absolutely no truth in this story. And he added that it wouldn't work anyway.

I'm no business person, but what would the speculators even suggest they 'merge' when the clubs aren't close-by, players are getting/looking for new jobs, and teams tend to spend to the cap anyway don't they?

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:12 pm

Niegs wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:59 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:42 am As an adjunct, I was told on Wednesday by someone reasonably connected with the Not Nots that some sort of discussions were being held that day regarding them engaging with Wasps in some format.

What would a merger actually entail?

The Wasps CEO said on Tuesday there was absolutely no truth in this story. And he added that it wouldn't work anyway.

L Irish do not appear to be in a happy place financially either. Evidently their owner, Mick Crossan would be happy to sell them on for £1!!!!

SaintK wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:14 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:12 pm

Niegs wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:59 pm

What would a merger actually entail?

The Wasps CEO said on Tuesday there was absolutely no truth in this story. And he added that it wouldn't work anyway.

L Irish do not appear to be in a happy place financially either. Evidently their owner, Mick Crossan would be happy to sell them on for £1!!!!

It's harsh to say but losing a team from the Midlands and one from West London won't actually do much harm to the Premiership. If London Irish went under then that would leave;

London x2
Manchester x1
East Midlands x2
Northeast x1
Southwest x1
West x3

If they can get a bit strategic and get more Premiership 2 representation in the East, Southeast/South coast then hopefully some positive might phoenix out of this colossal goatfuck.

Debt everywhere!!! This must be totally unsustainable

Following Wasps, the second most indebted club is Bristol Bears, who owe £51.2 million, which is 11 per cent of all the debt in the league.

Third on the list is Saracens, who owe £40.8 million, 9 per cent of the total debt of the league.

Bath have debts totalling £37.8 million, which equates to 8 per cent of the league’s total. London Irish aren’t far behind with £37.3 million.

Fellow Londoners Harlequins also have a significant amount of debt, with £33.7 million. Newcastle Falcons, who are typically viewed as one of the smaller operations in the league, owe £32 million. Both the Tynesiders and Quins individual debut equates to roughly 7 per cent of the league.

Big spending Sale Sharks have £30.9 of debt, which is again approximately 7 per cent of the competition’s total debt.

Midland heavyweights Leicester Tigers owe £30.1 million.

Gloucester owe £27.1 million, while Northampton Saints follow closely on £26.5 million.

By far the least amount of debt is owed by Exeter Chiefs, at £13 million, which is equal to just 3 per cent of club debt.

SaintK wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:49 pm Debt everywhere!!! This must be totally unsustainable

Following Wasps, the second most indebted club is Bristol Bears, who owe £51.2 million, which is 11 per cent of all the debt in the league.

Third on the list is Saracens, who owe £40.8 million, 9 per cent of the total debt of the league.

Bath have debts totalling £37.8 million, which equates to 8 per cent of the league’s total. London Irish aren’t far behind with £37.3 million.

Fellow Londoners Harlequins also have a significant amount of debt, with £33.7 million. Newcastle Falcons, who are typically viewed as one of the smaller operations in the league, owe £32 million. Both the Tynesiders and Quins individual debut equates to roughly 7 per cent of the league.

Big spending Sale Sharks have £30.9 of debt, which is again approximately 7 per cent of the competition’s total debt.

Midland heavyweights Leicester Tigers owe £30.1 million.

Gloucester owe £27.1 million, while Northampton Saints follow closely on £26.5 million.

By far the least amount of debt is owed by Exeter Chiefs, at £13 million, which is equal to just 3 per cent of club debt.

Rather than calculating each club’s debt as a percentage of total debt in the league, it would be more instructive to know how the level of debt relates to each club’s turnover and assets.

For example, if Exeter’s £13m of debt is a higher percentage of its assets and turnover than Saracen’s £40m, then it represents a bigger threat to Exeter’s financial viability as a club.

Having said that, this level of debt doesn’t look sustainable for any club.

Fuck me! And that's after the CVC windfall (and COVID to be fair)

Be interesting to know who the money is owed to and what the terms are - presumably some is DCMS/Covid loans and some is owner/sugar daddy funding?

It seems to be money owed to HRMC that triggered the Wasps and Worcester incidents, so provided no one has amounts they can't pay being requested by HMRC they should be fine for now.

Lobby wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:59 pm
Rather than calculating each club’s debt as a percentage of total debt in the league, it would be more instructive to know how the level of debt relates to each club’s turnover and assets.

You make a decent point, i.e Saracens have just spent £23m on a new stand, I doubt they paid cash up front to build it.

Niegs wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:59 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:42 am As an adjunct, I was told on Wednesday by someone reasonably connected with the Not Nots that some sort of discussions were being held that day regarding them engaging with Wasps in some format.

What would a merger actually entail?

I have no idea. There are so many separate legal entities in something like Wasps, the normal notion of a business merger doesn't apply. I can't even see what's in it for Irish anyway unless they think Wasps fans might move somewhere else, yet again. I'm sure they'd have to pay for the P shares regardless.

SaintK wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:49 pm Debt everywhere!!! This must be totally unsustainable

Following Wasps, the second most indebted club is Bristol Bears, who owe £51.2 million, which is 11 per cent of all the debt in the league.

Third on the list is Saracens, who owe £40.8 million, 9 per cent of the total debt of the league.

Bath have debts totalling £37.8 million, which equates to 8 per cent of the league’s total. London Irish aren’t far behind with £37.3 million.

Fellow Londoners Harlequins also have a significant amount of debt, with £33.7 million. Newcastle Falcons, who are typically viewed as one of the smaller operations in the league, owe £32 million. Both the Tynesiders and Quins individual debut equates to roughly 7 per cent of the league.

Big spending Sale Sharks have £30.9 of debt, which is again approximately 7 per cent of the competition’s total debt.

Midland heavyweights Leicester Tigers owe £30.1 million.

Gloucester owe £27.1 million, while Northampton Saints follow closely on £26.5 million.

By far the least amount of debt is owed by Exeter Chiefs, at £13 million, which is equal to just 3 per cent of club debt.

Just mental. The immediate action should be to force all the teams to have a requirement to be reducing that debt, sustainably over a finite period. If that means lower player wages, tough: that's what sustainability means.

duke wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:01 pm Be interesting to know who the money is owed to and what the terms are - presumably some is DCMS/Covid loans and some is owner/sugar daddy funding?

Yep. Bristol's debt is all to their owner IIRC.

If it were at all possible, the Wasps position gets worse with the only real asset within the group of companies at risk:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63387627

Bondholders asked for more money to stave off stadium business liquidation

Good luck!!

Ex-Worcester Warriors director of rugby Steve Diamond is at the head of one of the two main consortiums looking to take over at Sixways.
Diamond, 54, who has financial backing from two as yet unnamed investors, will have former Leicester chief executive Simon Cohen as part of his consortium.
"My goal is a sustainable business able to compete back in the Premiership within three or four years," he said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63411113

Last rites for Wasps confirmed
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63429086

So Championship rugby looks better than being sent to the bottom like, iirc, Richmond and London Scottish were.

As Diamond says, could be tricky to complete rebuild in that division. Are there EQP rules for that division? Could they do what Exeter women have done and bring in a load of mercenaries from overseas? (T2 players and MLR types would probably do a job in The Championship, no?)

Niegs wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:35 pm So Championship rugby looks better than being sent to the bottom like, iirc, Richmond and London Scottish were.

As Diamond says, could be tricky to complete rebuild in that division. Are there EQP rules for that division? Could they do what Exeter women have done and bring in a load of mercenaries from overseas? (T2 players and MLR types would probably do a job in The Championship, no?)

There will also be a hell of a lot of squad/youth/journeymen players available from either Worcester as was or Wasps. Those who aren't picked up by Prem clubs will be a strong option for the Championship, and helps them secure new employment too.

Wasps have been suspended from the Premiership and Premiership Rugby Cup for the rest of the season, the RFU has confirmed.
The Coventry-based club will be relegated from the top tier and their results from this season expunged.

After the demise of Worcester Warriors last month, only 11 clubs will contest the rest of the Premiership season.

However, some good news has appeared tonight for Wasps fans with the club long-term future set to be rescued.
Times columnist Stephen Jones tweeted: “Joint administrators have agreed to sell to new group formed of Wasps Legends, ex-owners and others.
“It’s subject to contract and a green light from RFU but Wasps fans can plan ahead for next season.”