NPR

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:30 am I can imagine Cockerill's approach winning a one off game against SA. Can't see it being viable in the longer term.

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:40 am Why Atkinson? Every move died with him in the Tonga game, and that was Tonga after 60 minutes. At 31, he's not getting faster, and he's just not worth investing 10 caps to see if he can even start to come good in my mind.

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:40 am Why Atkinson? Every move died with him in the Tonga game, and that was Tonga after 60 minutes. At 31, he's not getting faster, and he's just not worth investing 10 caps to see if he can even start to come good in my mind.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:34 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:23 am Though this was interesting by BCM in the Torygraph
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... h-england/

Henry Slade’s man-of-the-match performance saw him in his best form for some time, but with this came a problem for Eddie Jones and also for fans of Marcus Smith.

We know that Manu Tuilagi is always going to play in a Jones team if fit, and so is Owen Farrell, because he is his captain. There are only three slots at 10, 12 and 13 and if Slade continues in this sort of form, it makes it more difficult for Jones to start Smith at outside-half. I fear that Smith from the bench is likely to be the norm after this game...

Question is whether BCM is right and Farrell is still Jones' automatic choice. For those of us who want to watch rugby, we hope not. For those of us who want to see Eng lose, we hope BCM is correct. I feel curiously torn.

Still mystified as to how Slade got MotM for that game, He was the same as he usually is for England - inconsistent. Fuck, even Youngs would've been a better pick.

Seen nothing to suggest that Jones has less of a boner for Farrell now. They'd have taken the positive covid test on the chin and left him to isolate for a couple of weeks if he wasn;t desperately wanted in the side.

If I had my way the midfield for the next couple of games would be Smith Atkinson Tuilagi or Smith Tuilagi Marchant,

England prop Joe Marler will miss Saturday's Test against Australia in the Autumn Nations Series at Twickenham after testing positive for Covid-19.

Marler returned a positive lateral flow test on Monday with a subsequent PCR test also coming back positive.

The 32-year-old forward will now isolate for 10 days in line with government regulations.

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:04 pm Who's next in line?

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:41 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:30 am I can imagine Cockerill's approach winning a one off game against SA. Can't see it being viable in the longer term.

He came in to Edinburgh and immediately turned us around, he made us a tough nut to crack, but as Barclay says that can only take you so far and the limitations were so bleeding obvious in Cockerills last season.
Edinburgh were clueless after two phases and very creative players like Charlie Shiel were becoming slower and more conservative with every game.
He picked the same team and had them play as close to 80 minutes as he could, which stunted the development of young players.

There was a senior player revolt which was the final nail for Cockers, he still had a couple of years on his contract when he left. We lost a two Lions and another three international props, a laddie who just scored a hattrick at the weekend in the premiership there, a Fijian international winger and others who moved on, now I don't know if that was all down to Cockerill, but from what I gather the atmosphere was toxic, he'd humiliate players in front of the squad on Mondays for making mistakes at the weekend.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:50 pm You have to question the point of the Premiership Cup with so many injuries around. Give a few weeks off instead.

petej wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:57 am

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:40 am Why Atkinson? Every move died with him in the Tonga game, and that was Tonga after 60 minutes. At 31, he's not getting faster, and he's just not worth investing 10 caps to see if he can even start to come good in my mind.

If you want a solid inside center you might as well select Dan Kelly who is at least young and could develop. Haven't watched much English prem in the last two years (due to COVID, having a toddler, not having bt sport) so don't know who is available that matches the following criteria - English <26yrs old and playing 12 currently for a premiership side?

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:24 pm

petej wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:57 am

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:40 am Why Atkinson? Every move died with him in the Tonga game, and that was Tonga after 60 minutes. At 31, he's not getting faster, and he's just not worth investing 10 caps to see if he can even start to come good in my mind.

If you want a solid inside center you might as well select Dan Kelly who is at least young and could develop. Haven't watched much English prem in the last two years (due to COVID, having a toddler, not having bt sport) so don't know who is available that matches the following criteria - English <26yrs old and playing 12 currently for a premiership side?

The best English 12 in the Premiership is Lozowski.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:27 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:41 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:30 am I can imagine Cockerill's approach winning a one off game against SA. Can't see it being viable in the longer term.

He came in to Edinburgh and immediately turned us around, he made us a tough nut to crack, but as Barclay says that can only take you so far and the limitations were so bleeding obvious in Cockerills last season.
Edinburgh were clueless after two phases and very creative players like Charlie Shiel were becoming slower and more conservative with every game.
He picked the same team and had them play as close to 80 minutes as he could, which stunted the development of young players.

There was a senior player revolt which was the final nail for Cockers, he still had a couple of years on his contract when he left. We lost a two Lions and another three international props, a laddie who just scored a hattrick at the weekend in the premiership there, a Fijian international winger and others who moved on, now I don't know if that was all down to Cockerill, but from what I gather the atmosphere was toxic, he'd humiliate players in front of the squad on Mondays for making mistakes at the weekend.

Yeah I'd have a strong preference for him not being involved with England at all but can see it getting results this autumn.

inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:29 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:24 pm

petej wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:57 am

If you want a solid inside center you might as well select Dan Kelly who is at least young and could develop. Haven't watched much English prem in the last two years (due to COVID, having a toddler, not having bt sport) so don't know who is available that matches the following criteria - English <26yrs old and playing 12 currently for a premiership side?

The best English 12 in the Premiership is Lozowski.

I'd certainly not whine about seeing him in an England shirt. Shame he failed the Eddie audition, looks like there's few second chances.

inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:29 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:24 pm

petej wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:57 am

If you want a solid inside center you might as well select Dan Kelly who is at least young and could develop. Haven't watched much English prem in the last two years (due to COVID, having a toddler, not having bt sport) so don't know who is available that matches the following criteria - English <26yrs old and playing 12 currently for a premiership side?

The best English 12 in the Premiership is Lozowski.

I'd certainly not whine about seeing him in an England shirt. Shame he failed the Eddie audition, looks like there's few second chances.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:47 pm

inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:29 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:24 pm



The best English 12 in the Premiership is Lozowski.

I'd certainly not whine about seeing him in an England shirt. Shame he failed the Eddie audition, looks like there's few second chances.

Well the antipodean idiot has just picked George Furbank again and he was absolute dogshit in his first two caps.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:15 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:47 pm

inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:29 pm

I'd certainly not whine about seeing him in an England shirt. Shame he failed the Eddie audition, looks like there's few second chances.

Well the antipodean idiot has just picked George Furbank again and he was absolute dogshit in his first two caps.

Never got hooked early in a test, though. That seems to be Eddie's line for no chances ever again (regardless of whether the hooking was merited or not).

mos_eisely_ wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:28 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:27 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:41 am

He came in to Edinburgh and immediately turned us around, he made us a tough nut to crack, but as Barclay says that can only take you so far and the limitations were so bleeding obvious in Cockerills last season.
Edinburgh were clueless after two phases and very creative players like Charlie Shiel were becoming slower and more conservative with every game.
He picked the same team and had them play as close to 80 minutes as he could, which stunted the development of young players.

There was a senior player revolt which was the final nail for Cockers, he still had a couple of years on his contract when he left. We lost a two Lions and another three international props, a laddie who just scored a hattrick at the weekend in the premiership there, a Fijian international winger and others who moved on, now I don't know if that was all down to Cockerill, but from what I gather the atmosphere was toxic, he'd humiliate players in front of the squad on Mondays for making mistakes at the weekend.

Yeah I'd have a strong preference for him not being involved with England at all but can see it getting results this autumn.

I think as an assistant international coach is the perfect place for him. He doesn't have responsibility for back play or overall gameplan, and gets to beast the forwards for a few weeks a year to get them fired up for test matches

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:03 pm Looks like a few years back PRL really did start to get tougher on release outside the window, after the George North fine of £60k.

Jamie Roberts saying he had a clause with Quins saying he gets full release and they'll deal with any fines etc from PRL, but when it came to it, they offered him £130k to buy him out his contract, so he was no longer their player (and could of course play for Wales). Suggests the punishment was more than £130k.

inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:47 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:15 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:47 pm



Well the antipodean idiot has just picked George Furbank again and he was absolute dogshit in his first two caps.

Never got hooked early in a test, though. That seems to be Eddie's line for no chances ever again (regardless of whether the hooking was merited or not).

Aye, Isiekwe won't be getting a look-in until Eddie's pensioned off.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:28 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:03 pm Looks like a few years back PRL really did start to get tougher on release outside the window, after the George North fine of £60k.

Jamie Roberts saying he had a clause with Quins saying he gets full release and they'll deal with any fines etc from PRL, but when it came to it, they offered him £130k to buy him out his contract, so he was no longer their player (and could of course play for Wales). Suggests the punishment was more than £130k.

I wonder if Quins declared that £130k to the cap commissioner? That's at least a couple of squad player salaries.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:11 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:28 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:03 pm Looks like a few years back PRL really did start to get tougher on release outside the window, after the George North fine of £60k.

Jamie Roberts saying he had a clause with Quins saying he gets full release and they'll deal with any fines etc from PRL, but when it came to it, they offered him £130k to buy him out his contract, so he was no longer their player (and could of course play for Wales). Suggests the punishment was more than £130k.

I wonder if Quins declared that £130k to the cap commissioner? That's at least a couple of squad player salaries.

Why would they declare something they never paid?

It'd also represent Roberts' salary getting off the books, but I can't say I know what else Quins would've had to do to balance it.

Raggs wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:25 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:11 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:28 pm



I wonder if Quins declared that £130k to the cap commissioner? That's at least a couple of squad player salaries.

Why would they declare something they never paid?

It'd also represent Roberts' salary getting off the books, but I can't say I know what else Quins would've had to do to balance it.

Didn't see this without the quote, but yeah... paying someone their salary isn't exactly going to come as a shock to the cap commissioner, whether it's buying him out the rest of his contract in a lump, or given over the months. No issue there whatsoever.

Where the conversation could have perhaps been interesting, is if there was a PRL fine (I know we're into hypotheticals here), could that have been classified as part of the cap? The contract was written stating that Quins would cover those payments, so it's a known potential expense when hiring the player, that would help entice the player to Quins rather than another team.

It wouldn't have been millions regardless, I suspect it was probably a points punishment that they actually wanted to avoid.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:33 amI think it's a pretty shabby thing for Quins to have done for the record, but I can't see how a PRL fine would come out of the salary cap even if Quins had agreed with Roberts that they'd pay it - Roberts was never going to be the recipient of the fine himself. Either way I'm glad Quins were forced to change their mind. Roberts' overwraught writing on this is hilarious but it's clearly not as straightforward as he makes out, hence his lawyers going "eh it's 50/50" (according to him).

Strange guy, super smart but surely must have known he wasn't putting in the performances at Quins and was on the way down? Think it's a little convenient for him to say "this ended my international career" given his personal form and his age.

Raggs wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:20 am Manu apparently with less body fat than England have ever seen him with, and as well as that, put up his fastest GPS numbers too, so it wasn't just a feeling that he was looking like that kid that was fast enough to play wing again. Looks like he genuinely has sped up.

Hopefully with the fat and weight loss, he'll have a bit more longevity too...

Brazil wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:53 am

Raggs wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:20 am Manu apparently with less body fat than England have ever seen him with, and as well as that, put up his fastest GPS numbers too, so it wasn't just a feeling that he was looking like that kid that was fast enough to play wing again. Looks like he genuinely has sped up.

Hopefully with the fat and weight loss, he'll have a bit more longevity too...

Him and Van Rensburg both lost a tonne of weight over the summer and have looked much sharper as a consequence.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:37 am

Brazil wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:53 am

Raggs wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:20 am Manu apparently with less body fat than England have ever seen him with, and as well as that, put up his fastest GPS numbers too, so it wasn't just a feeling that he was looking like that kid that was fast enough to play wing again. Looks like he genuinely has sped up.

Hopefully with the fat and weight loss, he'll have a bit more longevity too...

Him and Van Rensburg both lost a tonne of weight over the summer and have looked much sharper as a consequence.

I gather Van Rensburg asked Manu one day whether they were both too big and from there they resolved to get leaner.

Spoiler

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Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:23 am

inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:47 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:15 pm

Never got hooked early in a test, though. That seems to be Eddie's line for no chances ever again (regardless of whether the hooking was merited or not).

Aye, Isiekwe won't be getting a look-in until Eddie's pensioned off.

There's an extent to which this is true regardless of who is England coach - with the amount of decent players we have some will always be on the outside looking in.

inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:52 pm Bevan Rodd called up to squad in place of Marler

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:53 pm

inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:52 pm Bevan Rodd called up to squad in place of Marler

Mako definitely not wanted then!!!