NPR

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:54 pm Owen Farrell plays much better for his club side than he does for England (much like every other player who represents England under Jones). Farrell probably would have improved England had he started at 12 instead of Slade yesterday. He's not the answer to the England 12 problem but hopefully some of the naysayers can see that in the Eddie Jones vision, it's not an easy place to slot into.

Eddie Jones admits the role his mismanagement of replacing Luke Cowan-Dickie played in England’s dramatic 20-17 defeat by Scotland.

Cowan-Dickie was sent to the sin-bin for a deliberate knock-on that prevented Darcy Graham from scoring a probable try in a tense final quarter of the Six Nations opener at Murrayfield.

Instead of bringing on Jamie George as specialist hooker cover, Jones kept his back row intact only for the decision to backfire when it meant prop Joe Marler had to throw in at the line-out.

Marler’s throw failed to travel five metres and from the resulting scrum England conceded a penalty which Finn Russell used to land the match-winning kick.

“We thought we could wait for a scrum because we wanted to keep the back rowers on at that stage,” Jones said.

“Scotland were moving the ball around well. We thought we needed that third back rower on. Certainly I take the blame for that.”

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:32 pm Inspired by some chat in the Scottish rugby thread and the earlier discussion in here about England's kicking, I thought I'd take a look at the stats. The official 6N stats include metres kicked and "ball played by hand %" - i.e. not kicked - but not "number of times kicked" which is annoying. Anyway, here they are:

Code: Select all

France:

| #     | Player   | Metres Kicked | Ball Played by Hand | Kick Perc |
|-------|----------|---------------|---------------------|-----------|
| 15    | Jaminet  | 326           | 66%                 | 34%       |
| 14    | Penaud   | 78            | 88%                 | 12%       |
| 13    | Fickou   | 11            | 91%                 | 9%        |
| 12    | Danty    | 22            | 90%                 | 10%       |
| 11    | Villiere | 46            | 93%                 | 7%        |
| 10    | Ntamack  | 296           | 73%                 | 27%       |
| 9     | Dupont   | 329           | 87%                 | 13%       |
| sub   | Lucu     | 23            | 90%                 | 10%       |
| sub   | Moefana  | 6             | 85%                 | 15%       |
| sub   | Ramos    | 61            | 75%                 | 25%       |
| START | TOTAL    | 1108          | AVERAGE: 84%        | 16%       |
| SUB   | TOTAL    | 90            | AVERAGE: 83%        | 17%       |


Italy:

| #     | Player     | Metres Kicked | Ball Played by Hand | Kick Perc |
|-------|------------|---------------|---------------------|-----------|
| 15    | Padovani   | 85            | 76%                 | 24%       |
| 14    | Menoncello | 0             | 100%                | 0%        |
| 13    | Brex       | 40            | 66%                 | 33%       |
| 12    | Zanon      | 0             | 100%                | 0%        |
| 11    | Ioane      | 0             | 100%                | 0%        |
| 10    | Garbisi    | 438           | 58%                 | 42%       |
| 9     | Varney     | 231           | 81%                 | 19%       |
| sub   | Braley     | 32            | 91%                 | 9%        |
| sub   | Marin      | 0             | 100%                | 0%        |
| START | TOTAL      | 794           | AVERAGE: 83%        | 17%       |
| SUB   | TOTAL      | 32            | AVERAGE: 95%        | 5%        |


Ireland:

| #     | Player      | Metres Kicked | Ball Played by Hand | Kick Perc |
|-------|-------------|---------------|---------------------|-----------|
| 15    | Keenan      | 88            | 81%                 | 19%       |
| 14    | Conway      | 49            | 77%                 | 23%       |
| 13    | Ringrose    | 22            | 95%                 | 5%        |
| 12    | Aki         | 0             | 100%                | 0%        |
| 11    | Hansen      | 23            | 93%                 | 7%        |
| 10    | Sexton      | 70            | 90%                 | 10%       |
| 9     | Gibson-Park | 200           | 90%                 | 10%       |
| sub   | Murray      | 0             | 100%                | 0%        |
| sub   | Carbery     | 32            | 91%                 | 9%        |
| sub   | Hume        | 0             | 100%                | 0%        |
| START | TOTAL       | 452           | AVERAGE: 89%        | 11%       |
| SUB   | TOTAL       | 32            | AVERAGE: 97%        | 3%        |

Wales:

| #     | Player      | Metres Kicked | Ball Played by Hand | Kick Perc |
|-------|-------------|---------------|---------------------|-----------|
| 15    | Williams    | 0             | 100%                | 0%        |
| 14    | McNicholl   | 0             | 100%                | 0%        |
| 13    | Adams       | 0             | 100%                | 0%        |
| 12    | Tompkins    | 0             | 100%                | 0%        |
| 11    | Rees-Zammit | 176           | 72%                 | 28%       |
| 10    | Biggar      | 182           | 84%                 | 16%       |
| 9     | Williams    | 36            | 96%                 | 4%        |
| sub   | Davies      | 58            | 90%                 | 10%       |
| sub   | Sheedy      | 0             | 100%                | 0%        |
| sub   | Watkin      | 0             | 100%                | 0%        |
| START | TOTAL       | 394           | AVERAGE: 93%        | 7%        |
| SUB   | TOTAL       | 58            | AVERAGE: 97%        | 3%        |


Scotland:

| #     | Player    | Metres Kicked | Ball Played by Hand | Kick Perc |
|-------|-----------|---------------|---------------------|-----------|
| 15    | Hogg      | 275           | 65%                 | 35%       |
| 14    | Graham    | 0             | 100%                | 0%        |
| 13    | Harris    | 0             | 100%                | 0%        |
| 12    | Johnson   | 0             | 100%                | 0%        |
| 11    | vd Merwe  | 45            | 87%                 | 13%       |
| 10    | Russell   | 357           | 61%                 | 39%       |
| 9     | Price     | 148           | 86%                 | 14%       |
| sub   | White     | 1             | 95%                 | 5%        |
| sub   | Tuipulotu | 0             | 100%                | 0%        |
| START | TOTAL     | 825           | AVERAGE: 86%        | 14%       |
| SUB   | TOTAL     | 1             | AVERAGE: 98%        | 2%        |

and finally, England:

| #     | Player   | Metres Kicked | Ball Played by Hand | Kick Perc |
|-------|----------|---------------|---------------------|-----------|
| 15    | Steward  | 39            | 72%                 | 28%       |
| 14    | Malins   | 35            | 81%                 | 19%       |
| 13    | Daly     | 50            | 80%                 | 20%       |
| 12    | Slade    | 123           | 85%                 | 15%       |
| 11    | Marchant | 0             | 100%                | 0%        |
| 10    | Smith    | 133           | 78%                 | 22%       |
| 9     | Youngs   | 456           | 78%                 | 22%       |
| sub   | Ford     | 0             | 100%                | 0%        |
| START | TOTAL    | 836           | AVERAGE: 82%        | 18%       |
| SUB   | TOTAL    | 0             | AVERAGE: 100%       | 0%        |

What does this show us? Well, straight off:

France - everyone is comfortable kicking as an option, but the centres and wings kick around 10% of the time. Dupont kicks very little for a 9. France had a fuck-ton of ball and kicked it a lot but it was in proportion to the amount of possession they had.
Italy - Lots of players who do not kick. Garbisi was leathering the hell out of it. Italy were under the cosh, so...
Ireland - very low kick percentage from the halfbacks and fullback. Conway kicked more than anyone. Clear plan to keep ball in hand.
Wales - Bizarrely, no outside back except LRZ kicked the ball. They kept the ball in hand almost the entire game. Tomos Williams kicked 4% of the time. Very strange.
Scotland - Hogg and Russell kicked loads. Everyone else kept ball in hand. Price only kicked 14% of ball. Neither Scottish centre kicked it.

And as for England - every single player in the backline bar Marchant kicked the ball a lot. Only one centre (Brex, Italy) liked kicking more often than the England centres. Youngs kicked more distance than any other player this weekend (most of them being too long). England had the highest average kick-to-pass-or-run ratio from the starting teams (only just, mind). Smith was not kicking for distance - only Sexton made fewer metres with kicks out of hand.

It was a clear tactic to have England's outside backs kick the ball at every opportunity. According to this article: https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/s ... es-1446323 England kicked the ball away at least five times inside Scotland's 22. Youngs' kicking was diabolical, and he inflicted more of it on us than any other scrum half attempted in round 1. Even a shithouse Italy side under the cosh against the French, playing in dreadful conditions, kept the ball in hand more than we did.

Everyone else has the balls to actually run it, and to kick in attack when the individuals think it's on, not because it's the primary tactic.

inactionman wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 4:19 pm In other 'rugby things that could be predicted', Bath got drummed 40-3 by Sarries. Our two-match winning run** has been broken.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:54 pm Good work JMK, even if depressing to read.

Ovals, you're being charitable to Eddie there. This isn't the first time England have kicked away attacking ball in good positions under him and in the past it's often been repeated in the next game with no personnel being dropped, which rather suggests either they were following instructions or he was ok with their interpretation of what he wanted from them.

Even in this game, if he didn't like what was happening Smith and another back could've been subbed far earlier than they were.

Ovals wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:17 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:54 pm Good work JMK, even if depressing to read.

Ovals, you're being charitable to Eddie there. This isn't the first time England have kicked away attacking ball in good positions under him and in the past it's often been repeated in the next game with no personnel being dropped, which rather suggests either they were following instructions or he was ok with their interpretation of what he wanted from them.

Even in this game, if he didn't like what was happening Smith and another back could've been subbed far earlier than they were.

I'm not being charitable, Im being logical - It is clear that they don't always kick the ball in promising attacks in and around the 22 - we saw that when Smith scored and on loads of previous occassions when we've passed the ball along to the try scorer. Yes, Eddie is a numpty who does encourage too much kicking - but it's down to the players to make the choice in those positions - they don't always choose to kick but when they do it is often the wrong choice. I suspect Eddie could change that, if he said only kick in the final third as a last option - but the players are the ones making the decisions and they just aren't getting it right.

Waudbee wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:27 pm I cannot see England beating anyone else other than Italy from here on in. I think Scotland may suffer the same fate.

Waudbee wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:27 pm I cannot see England beating anyone else other than Italy from here on in. I think Scotland may suffer the same fate.

Ovals wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:17 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:54 pm Good work JMK, even if depressing to read.

Ovals, you're being charitable to Eddie there. This isn't the first time England have kicked away attacking ball in good positions under him and in the past it's often been repeated in the next game with no personnel being dropped, which rather suggests either they were following instructions or he was ok with their interpretation of what he wanted from them.

Even in this game, if he didn't like what was happening Smith and another back could've been subbed far earlier than they were.

I'm not being charitable, Im being logical - It is clear that they don't always kick the ball in promising attacks in and around the 22 - we saw that when Smith scored and on loads of previous occassions when we've passed the ball along to the try scorer. Yes, Eddie is a numpty who does encourage too much kicking - but it's down to the players to make the choice in those positions - they don't always choose to kick but when they do it is often the wrong choice. I suspect Eddie could change that, if he said only kick in the final third as a last option - but the players are the ones making the decisions and they just aren't getting it right.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:32 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:17 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:54 pm Good work JMK, even if depressing to read.

Ovals, you're being charitable to Eddie there. This isn't the first time England have kicked away attacking ball in good positions under him and in the past it's often been repeated in the next game with no personnel being dropped, which rather suggests either they were following instructions or he was ok with their interpretation of what he wanted from them.

Even in this game, if he didn't like what was happening Smith and another back could've been subbed far earlier than they were.

I'm not being charitable, Im being logical - It is clear that they don't always kick the ball in promising attacks in and around the 22 - we saw that when Smith scored and on loads of previous occassions when we've passed the ball along to the try scorer. Yes, Eddie is a numpty who does encourage too much kicking - but it's down to the players to make the choice in those positions - they don't always choose to kick but when they do it is often the wrong choice. I suspect Eddie could change that, if he said only kick in the final third as a last option - but the players are the ones making the decisions and they just aren't getting it right.

Oh come on - the fact that England didn't kick the ball when 5m from the line isn't proof of anything.

Ovals wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:36 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:32 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:17 pm

I'm not being charitable, Im being logical - It is clear that they don't always kick the ball in promising attacks in and around the 22 - we saw that when Smith scored and on loads of previous occassions when we've passed the ball along to the try scorer. Yes, Eddie is a numpty who does encourage too much kicking - but it's down to the players to make the choice in those positions - they don't always choose to kick but when they do it is often the wrong choice. I suspect Eddie could change that, if he said only kick in the final third as a last option - but the players are the ones making the decisions and they just aren't getting it right.

Oh come on - the fact that England didn't kick the ball when 5m from the line isn't proof of anything.

5m !! maybe you should stick to imperial units if you think that was 5m - but you simply cannot deny that we do score tries without kicking the ball away in and around the 22.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1pt5Dw4eKU

ASMO wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:30 pm

Waudbee wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:27 pm I cannot see England beating anyone else other than Italy from here on in. I think Scotland may suffer the same fate.

Its a 50/50 against Wales, but only because it is at Twickenham, if it was at the Principality, i would back the leekists.

Monk wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:33 am to my mind Eddie Jones simply is unable to properly guage a player's worth - that is both his inherent rugby qualities and what he would bring to a team

the bottom line is that the England side is not a happy one - there is no sign of them enjoying the game they are playing

Happyhooker wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:29 pm Launchbury in, Ludlum out (rib injury)

Waudbee wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:52 pm Anyone in the know as to why Will Carling has closed his twitter account?

inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:35 pm

Monk wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:33 am to my mind Eddie Jones simply is unable to properly guage a player's worth - that is both his inherent rugby qualities and what he would bring to a team

the bottom line is that the England side is not a happy one - there is no sign of them enjoying the game they are playing

I'd tend to agree. Who would enjoy being beasted and belittled on what appears an hourly basis.

Interesting to note that the England football team suffered this - it's mainly why Scholes and Carrick, amongst others, retired as it was so unpleasant going on international duty - and it's only after Southgate has encouraged a pleasant working environment that the results have improved.

eta: Southgate also seems to have a feel for character and personality, as noted in other threads he disposed of Mason Greenwood but retained Phil Foden for the same transgression.

shaggy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:14 pm

inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:35 pm

Monk wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:33 am to my mind Eddie Jones simply is unable to properly guage a player's worth - that is both his inherent rugby qualities and what he would bring to a team

the bottom line is that the England side is not a happy one - there is no sign of them enjoying the game they are playing

I'd tend to agree. Who would enjoy being beasted and belittled on what appears an hourly basis.

Interesting to note that the England football team suffered this - it's mainly why Scholes and Carrick, amongst others, retired as it was so unpleasant going on international duty - and it's only after Southgate has encouraged a pleasant working environment that the results have improved.

eta: Southgate also seems to have a feel for character and personality, as noted in other threads he disposed of Mason Greenwood but retained Phil Foden for the same transgression.

Remember Bomber?

shaggy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:14 pm

inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:35 pm

Monk wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:33 am to my mind Eddie Jones simply is unable to properly guage a player's worth - that is both his inherent rugby qualities and what he would bring to a team

the bottom line is that the England side is not a happy one - there is no sign of them enjoying the game they are playing

I'd tend to agree. Who would enjoy being beasted and belittled on what appears an hourly basis.

Interesting to note that the England football team suffered this - it's mainly why Scholes and Carrick, amongst others, retired as it was so unpleasant going on international duty - and it's only after Southgate has encouraged a pleasant working environment that the results have improved.

eta: Southgate also seems to have a feel for character and personality, as noted in other threads he disposed of Mason Greenwood but retained Phil Foden for the same transgression.

Remember Bomber?

shaggy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:14 pm

inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:35 pm

Monk wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:33 am to my mind Eddie Jones simply is unable to properly guage a player's worth - that is both his inherent rugby qualities and what he would bring to a team

the bottom line is that the England side is not a happy one - there is no sign of them enjoying the game they are playing

I'd tend to agree. Who would enjoy being beasted and belittled on what appears an hourly basis.

Interesting to note that the England football team suffered this - it's mainly why Scholes and Carrick, amongst others, retired as it was so unpleasant going on international duty - and it's only after Southgate has encouraged a pleasant working environment that the results have improved.

eta: Southgate also seems to have a feel for character and personality, as noted in other threads he disposed of Mason Greenwood but retained Phil Foden for the same transgression.

Remember Bomber?

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:47 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:36 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:32 pm

Oh come on - the fact that England didn't kick the ball when 5m from the line isn't proof of anything.

5m !! maybe you should stick to imperial units if you think that was 5m - but you simply cannot deny that we do score tries without kicking the ball away in and around the 22.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1pt5Dw4eKU

Jesus, Ovals. I'm saying the kicking it in the wider channels and trying to put pressure on rather than keeping ball in hand was Eddie's tactic for this match. Not that it's Eddie's tactic in every match. Showing me Marcus Smith playing like Marcus Smith in different match doesn't change that.

My apologies about the 5m comment. Here's when Marcus gets the ball:



No-one in their right minds would suggest that him not kicking it there is any kind of evidence contrary to the suggestion that we deliberately kicked away good attacking ball as part of a plan.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:43 pm

Happyhooker wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:29 pm Launchbury in, Ludlum out (rib injury)

He's only played 90 minutes since his 9 month lay off, even allowing for some selfish desire that Wasps get to keep hold of him, I'm not sure Eddie's England training is what he needs right now.

Ovals wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:30 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:43 pm

Happyhooker wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:29 pm Launchbury in, Ludlum out (rib injury)

He's only played 90 minutes since his 9 month lay off, even allowing for some selfish desire that Wasps get to keep hold of him, I'm not sure Eddie's England training is what he needs right now.

Agreed - England don't really need him for Italy - I assume Lawes will be back so he could have stick with Isiekwe and Itoge - he's also got plenty of other backrow options with Dombrandt and Barbeary (the latter has played 6 for Wasps at times recently).

Nonetheless, having Launchbury back, in the matchday squad, certainly strenthens it - as would bringing in Tuilagi, even if nether of them have played much since returning from injury.

Ovals wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:30 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:43 pm

Happyhooker wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:29 pm Launchbury in, Ludlum out (rib injury)

He's only played 90 minutes since his 9 month lay off, even allowing for some selfish desire that Wasps get to keep hold of him, I'm not sure Eddie's England training is what he needs right now.

Agreed - England don't really need him for Italy - I assume Lawes will be back so he could have stuck with Isiekwe and Itoge - he's also got plenty of other backrow options with Dombrandt and Barbeary (the latter has played 6 for Wasps at times recently).

Nonetheless, having Launchbury back, in the matchday squad, certainly strengthens it - as would bringing in Tuilagi, even if nether of them have played much since returning from injury.

petej wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:43 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:30 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:43 pm



He's only played 90 minutes since his 9 month lay off, even allowing for some selfish desire that Wasps get to keep hold of him, I'm not sure Eddie's England training is what he needs right now.

Agreed - England don't really need him for Italy - I assume Lawes will be back so he could have stick with Isiekwe and Itoge - he's also got plenty of other backrow options with Dombrandt and Barbeary (the latter has played 6 for Wasps at times recently).

Nonetheless, having Launchbury back, in the matchday squad, certainly strenthens it - as would bringing in Tuilagi, even if nether of them have played much since returning from injury.

Tuilagi's ability to get over the game line regardless of the quality of the ball you shovel out to him is priceless to England. If only he wasn't injured so often.