2022/23 Champions/Challenge Cup

[Torquemada 1420]

Chalk up another defeat for a winless French side. Edinburgh win away at Castres.

Cheers for the detail Torq - I certainly did think it would be more complicated than "ah, they just don't care".

I'm sure Racing will put on a show at home and I don't think a half fit Marcus Smith and the Quins walking wounded will challenge them.

Ironically, it will be of little consolation but the Prem is way more watchable that T14 this season.

Meantime, Chat's throwing shows why he's out of favour and Woki's hands show his continued poor form. On the latter, it would not surprise me if he is omitted in the 6N.

[Torquemada 1420]

While obviously I don't want the SA sides in the competition, I won't pretend some of them aren't playing excellent rugby. It's not the boring 10 man stuff I think some people expected, but the attacking quality and desire to stress their skills has surprised me. I mean it as a compliment, but some of these teams play more like NZ teams than anything else.

Can't argue with any of that. The Bulls especially.

[JM2K6]

Quite a refreshing change from the past month or so to see Quins on top at both set pieces.

[Paddington Bear]

French teams are clearly not interested that much in Europe, but when they are interested, they can compete with the best. Apart from Saracens, realisticly which other English team are going to be close to a semi final spot.

Leicester? They've done just as well as Saracens. Exeter have the personnel to trouble most teams.

The URC is regularly carried on the back of Leinster. Munster look okay and it's pleasing to see a welsh side be something other than cannon fodder, but this season is absolutely bizarre and I certainly wouldn't be using what's a fairly complex set of results and performances to be making wide ranging arguments about the quality of teams and international standard players in each league.

The French sides getting a pass from you despite most of them being dogshit in Europe kind of makes the point!

Not giving the French a pass at all, it is no secret that Europe is not a priority for them and they put out weaker teams until the knockout stages.

Why is it though that there has been 1 NH RWC winner in the history of the comp? It cannot be luck or coincidence, what is the point of difference between us and them? Not funding, we are far richer not numbers, we have more players, not resources, we have world class facilities, not talent, we have equally talented players,so what is it? It can only be structure.

Few thoughts on RWCs:
1) sporting culture. Rugby is a minority sport in all NH nations bar arguably Wales. That means we’re drawing talent from a smaller than expected pool but also are not picking the cream of the crop.
Also it seems there’s a greater culture of beery, slightly corinthian sports up here (certainly in the British Isles) than there is down south. More people there for a day out than a hard match.
NZ has rugby as the national sport, SA has it as the sport for white Saffers and Aussies have a very hard sporting culture that lets them punch above their weight but leaves a lot to be desired at lower levels
2) luck. France should have won the 2011 final, would ‘07 have been different had Cueto’s try been awarded? Likewise had Sinckler not been sparked out in 2019, the final collapse in the last 20 belies how nip and tuck the scoreboard was for much of that game. So in the pro era that leaves 2015 where the NH was blown away (and we were told we were in permanent crisis, the SH model was vastly superior etc etc) and 99 where again a NH team made the final and was well beaten.

I don’t think the Prem is showing itself to be noticeably inferior in this tournament at all. It lacks the resources of the French or the ability to pick most of a national team for a club that some of the URC sides have, but there’ll be a decent English representation in the latter stages. We have the talent in the league to put out a side that is more than competitive with the best, if only we’ll give them the chance.

[JM2K6]

Austin shocked that the TMO in Europe doesn't listen to him. Just as well as he was talking absolute bollocks.

[JM2K6]

Slightly frustrating that a) Quins lose the ball at a ruck and b) it gets picked up by a fat prop who was never onside...

Very loose from both teams, but Racing look like they'll make metres at will today.

[OomStruisbaai]

Well done Stormers. Nowhere near as impressive in the 2nd half - playing against 13 probably made them think the job was done - but still an excellent overall performance. It does raise some questions about their ruthlessness though.

Cheers Boet. Credit to LI to never stop playing. Disappointed 2nd half by the Stormers. They should never stop playing running rugby. Look like they decided to give LI all the possession and then defend them and waiting for mistakes.

Expect our Boks will get their last run against Clermont and try to get as high as possible on the log. The 3 teams above them is still unbeaten.

While obviously I don't want the SA sides in the competition, I won't pretend some of them aren't playing excellent rugby. It's not the boring 10 man stuff I think some people expected, but the attacking quality and desire to stress their skills has surprised me. I mean it as a compliment, but some of these teams play more like NZ teams than anything else.

Western Province (Stormers) traditionally played running rugby or loose rugby like the Irish calls it. Dobson who is a pure WP product (his dad Oom John was a WP legend) change it back to tradition after RasNaber changed them to a more defensive gameplan. Dobson came through the Bishops/UCT roots who plays like this for ages. Look like the Stormers successes open up the Bok style.

[Torquemada 1420]

Not giving the French a pass at all, it is no secret that Europe is not a priority for them and they put out weaker teams until the knockout stages.

Why is it though that there has been 1 NH RWC winner in the history of the comp? It cannot be luck or coincidence, what is the point of difference between us and them? Not funding, we are far richer not numbers, we have more players, not resources, we have world class facilities, not talent, we have equally talented players,so what is it? It can only be structure.

But it's not just that. IMHO, it has been about
- skills
- and brains (decision making)

In NPC, nearly all the sides, 1 to 15, played attacking rugby. And I'm convinced part of that was down to the lack of money i.e. they really were playing for the love of the game. In Fra, for example, it was all about the arm wrestle and when the money came in it formed an ugly triste with the stupidly long seasons (which NPC has never had).

On the 2nd point, I used to say the real difference between NZ sides and everyone else was they had 13 or 14 players who would make the correct decision most of the time whilst everyone else was lucky if he had 3 or 4 players who could do the same. What has changed here is the game has become so structured and predictable, players don't make decisions any longer and so NZ's former advantage is gone.

[JM2K6]

Ah, very lucky there. Wallace on the floor, separated from the scrum, kicks the ball to a player in front of him who then played it. Illegal in like 12 different ways. Quins then get a pen from the resulting play.

Probably a scrum pen to Quins in all truth though. But Racing lose a prop, think he was in for a very bad day at the scrum regardless so this might help Racing.

[JM2K6]

Cheers Boet. Credit to LI to never stop playing. Disappointed 2nd half by the Stormers. They should never stop playing running rugby. Look like they decided to give LI all the possession and then defend them and waiting for mistakes.

Expect our Boks will get their last run against Clermont and try to get as high as possible on the log. The 3 teams above them is still unbeaten.

While obviously I don't want the SA sides in the competition, I won't pretend some of them aren't playing excellent rugby. It's not the boring 10 man stuff I think some people expected, but the attacking quality and desire to stress their skills has surprised me. I mean it as a compliment, but some of these teams play more like NZ teams than anything else.

Western Province (Stormers) traditionally played running rugby or loose rugby like the Irish calls it. Dobson who is a pure WP product (his dad Oom John was a WP legend) change it back to tradition after RasNaber changed them to a more defensive gameplan. Dobson came through the Bishops/UCT roots who plays like this for ages. Look like the Stormers successes open up the Bok style.

Yeah, I'm more used to the Stormers sides of a little while ago that were focused on huge defence.

[JM2K6]

Please be OK Danny, you're the only good 9 we have

[OomStruisbaai]

Wilco vs Trevor. Let's see.

[Torquemada 1420]

Ah, very lucky there. Wallace on the floor, separated from the scrum, kicks the ball to a player in front of him who then played it. Illegal in like 12 different ways. Quins then get a pen from the resulting play.

Probably a scrum pen to Quins in all truth though. But Racing lose a prop, think he was in for a very bad day at the scrum regardless so this might help Racing.

It's Brace. He is a joke a best. The best anyone can hope for is his screw ups even themselves out.

[OomStruisbaai]

Sorry , Trevor on TH.

[Paddington Bear]

Not giving the French a pass at all, it is no secret that Europe is not a priority for them and they put out weaker teams until the knockout stages.

Why is it though that there has been 1 NH RWC winner in the history of the comp? It cannot be luck or coincidence, what is the point of difference between us and them? Not funding, we are far richer not numbers, we have more players, not resources, we have world class facilities, not talent, we have equally talented players,so what is it? It can only be structure.

But it's not just that. IMHO, it has been about
- skills
- and brains (decision making)

In NPC, nearly all the sides, 1 to 15, played attacking rugby. And I'm convinced part of that was down to the lack of money i.e. they really were playing for the love of the game. In Fra, for example, it was all about the arm wrestle and when the money came in it formed an ugly triste with the stupidly long seasons (which NPC has never had).

On the 2nd point, I used to say the real difference between NZ sides and everyone else was they had 13 or 14 players who would make the correct decision most of the time whilst everyone else was lucky if he had 3 or 4 players who could do the same. What has changed here is the game has become so structured and predictable, players don't make decisions any longer and so NZ's former advantage is gone.

I think skills have improved up here but there were periods where you’d look at a 6N game and probably less than half the players on the pitch could take a catch, draw a man and pass whilst going at full pace, whereas certainly for the ABs everyone could. Which turns a half chance from a scrum into 5 points.

England and Scotland remain phenomenally dumb rugby teams, France seem to have grown out of it for now.

[Torquemada 1420]

Errr, case in point. Anyone imagine a keewee prop dropping that.

[JM2K6]

Looks grounded at the first attempt but I'm not convincd. But it's definitely grounded _eventually_, just after the ref blows his whistle, which is annoying. Messy.

[Torquemada 1420]

I think skills have improved up here but there were periods where you’d look at a 6N game and probably less than half the players on the pitch could take a catch, draw a man and pass whilst going at full pace, whereas certainly for the ABs everyone could. Which turns a half chance from a scrum into 5 points.

England and Scotland remain phenomenally dumb rugby teams, France seem to have grown out of it for now.

Arg are even dumber. Fra have Edwards to beat the stupidity out of them at intl level. Catching a ball is still something no-one in Fra practices.

[OomStruisbaai]

No try

[JM2K6]

Jesus. That's a big call. Don't think it was conclusively not grounded on the first attempt, and even less evidence it wasn't grounded at the end. Oh well.

[ASMO]

She got that totally wrong, there is no way she can be certain that ball was not grounded.

[Torquemada 1420]

Good job the TMO is a street better at officiating than Brace. Giver her the whistle and send Brace back to the local park.

[JM2K6]

Piss poor defensive read.

[_Os_]

While obviously I don't want the SA sides in the competition, I won't pretend some of them aren't playing excellent rugby. It's not the boring 10 man stuff I think some people expected, but the attacking quality and desire to stress their skills has surprised me. I mean it as a compliment, but some of these teams play more like NZ teams than anything else.

Playing Super Rugby down the years had a big impact on SA rugby. But all the SA sides other than maybe the Bulls talk up their "traditional style" with the fans of each side claiming their sides plays running rugby when none of the other teams do, it's particularly pronounced with the Stormers/Sharks/Cheetahs but I've noticed Lions fans do it when their side has been good recently too.

We're like the reverse French, a casual fan thinks because of the reputation of the French national side for attacking flare the club sides will be like that, when actually French club sides are normally the opposite.

[sockwithaticket]

Good job the TMO is a street better at officiating than Brace. Giver her the whistle and send Brace back to the local park.

Nope, Joy Neville is also an inconsistent official.

[JM2K6]

On replay, interesting "flat" pass by Chat there...


(Not a real complaint, both sides will get away with lots of those today playing at this pace)

[Torquemada 1420]

Good job the TMO is a street better at officiating than Brace. Giver her the whistle and send Brace back to the local park.

Nope, Joy Neville is also an inconsistent official.

Which already makes her better than Brace who should never be let near a game involving any Fre team.

[Torquemada 1420]

FM. Brace gets it wrong again.

[JM2K6]

Stupid by Morris, obvious penalty. His first game for ages, and it shows - he's made a few errors already.

Thankfully Russell kicks dead, but I can see why he went for it - a 5m lineout is a likely try right now and going in 3 tries to the good at halftime would be perfect for them.

[Paddington Bear]

I think skills have improved up here but there were periods where you’d look at a 6N game and probably less than half the players on the pitch could take a catch, draw a man and pass whilst going at full pace, whereas certainly for the ABs everyone could. Which turns a half chance from a scrum into 5 points.

England and Scotland remain phenomenally dumb rugby teams, France seem to have grown out of it for now.

Arg are even dumber. Fra have Edwards to beat the stupidity out of them at intl level. Catching a ball is still something no-one in Fra practices.

My memories of rugby training are doing laps round my club’s boggy training pitch that’s on an excruciating slope, then hitting tackle bags for half an hour followed by forwards going on the scrum machine and backs trying a couple of set moves that were never used in a game. Then on matchday we’d drop the ball 20 times. Seems indicative

[Torquemada 1420]

[Torquemada 1420]

My memories of rugby training are doing laps round my club’s boggy training pitch that’s on an excruciating slope, then hitting tackle bags for half an hour followed by forwards going on the scrum machine and backs trying a couple of set moves that were never used in a game. Then on matchday we’d drop the ball 20 times. Seems indicative

Yeah. At FB, I simply never saw the ball in Eng except if it was hoofed to me.

[Torquemada 1420]

Smith shows Flake how you kick a ball to touch.

[JM2K6]

Weird half. It's rugby, but not recognisably so at times. Lots of effort and commitment to razzle dazzle but not actually all that effective most of the time.

Quins looking a bit at sea in defence, which isn't too much of a surprise given the attacking talent facing them and their own lack of cohesion with all the changes. Unlucky to have the try chalked off.

[ASMO]

My memories of rugby training are doing laps round my club’s boggy training pitch that’s on an excruciating slope, then hitting tackle bags for half an hour followed by forwards going on the scrum machine and backs trying a couple of set moves that were never used in a game. Then on matchday we’d drop the ball 20 times. Seems indicative

Yeah. At FB, I simply never saw the ball in Eng except if it was hoofed to me.

You just described a huge amount of my career in the back 3 as well, that was why i moved in to 10. Training was just like descibed as well except we would stop in every corner and do a rotation of pressups, situps, burpees or lunges.

[Lobby]

Good job the TMO is a street better at officiating than Brace. Giver her the whistle and send Brace back to the local park.

Nope, Joy Neville is also an inconsistent official.

She's a much better ref than Brace will ever be

[Torquemada 1420]

Weird half. It's rugby, but not recognisably so at times. Lots of effort and commitment to razzle dazzle but not actually all that effective most of the time.

Quins looking a bit at sea in defence, which isn't too much of a surprise given the attacking talent facing them and their own lack of cohesion with all the changes. Unlucky to have the try chalked off.

And you see Racing encapsulated in 40 mins: too little attention to basics. Against sides who don't allow them that level of possession or punish them for their errors (Leinster being the arch exponents), they look a rag tag bunch of individuals.

[Tichtheid]

25 seconds, I think that's how long that took

[Torquemada 1420]

Kerrist, that was way too easy.

[ASMO]

Don't think there is anywhere back from this, even for Quins