The Official English Rugby Thread

[Oxbow]

It was pretty even in the first half, but Saints have been excellent in the second half. Dingwall has looked good again, Freeman has touched the ball about twice but still managed to score a try. Heard a lot about Rapava Ruskin but he got absolutely no change out of Saints' second and third-choice tightheads. May has been absolutely shit.

[Oxbow]

Dingwall also just flattened Twelvetrees, he hits hard for not such a big fella.

[Lobby]

Any in particular to watch out for in the u20s?

In the backs Ma'asi - White is looking like a great centre option, big lad capable of crashing it up, but he's not just a bosher. Makes some cracking defensive reads, has an eye for a line and is picking up a fair few try assists. Bracken (yes, son of), looks like he could be the next bright young spark at 9 we all want to be picking up caps

Up front Chessum's younger brother has been impressing at lock. I'd expect to see the pair of them packing down for the senior team at some point in the near future. Fisilau continues to show himself as a versatile and dogged back rower. The four props are absolute monsters, huge young men. However, that only counts for so much. There's a long line of big young props whose scrummaging just didn't make it to the senior game. McArthur seems to have the most hype.

Did you forget Tristan Woodman who was a real handful in the back row and got player of the match making his U20 debut? He looks a real prospect, and was picked in a World XV U18 selection when playing for the U18s last year.

[sockwithaticket]

To be fair PRTV is now an option for the non televised games. For a fiver you can still watch them if it's a legit option you were looking for.

I know and I watched a fair few Wasps games that way before everything happened, but the existence of that adds an extra layer of discouragement to actually getting a BT sub.

If you could get a season pass to view all games via PRTV I'd do that or if BT actually broadcast all the games they have the rights to (and to which Australia and American viewers all have access to).

[sockwithaticket]

Any in particular to watch out for in the u20s?

In the backs Ma'asi - White is looking like a great centre option, big lad capable of crashing it up, but he's not just a bosher. Makes some cracking defensive reads, has an eye for a line and is picking up a fair few try assists. Bracken (yes, son of), looks like he could be the next bright young spark at 9 we all want to be picking up caps

Up front Chessum's younger brother has been impressing at lock. I'd expect to see the pair of them packing down for the senior team at some point in the near future. Fisilau continues to show himself as a versatile and dogged back rower. The four props are absolute monsters, huge young men. However, that only counts for so much. There's a long line of big young props whose scrummaging just didn't make it to the senior game. McArthur seems to have the most hype.

Did you forget Tristan Woodman who was a real handful in the back row and got player of the match making his U20 debut? He looks a real prospect, and was picked in a World XV U18 selection when playing for the U18s last year.

I was aiming for a sort fo aggregate over the 3 games played so far. If he performs like that over the next couple, I'd definitely stick him on the list.

[Margin__Walker]

To be fair PRTV is now an option for the non televised games. For a fiver you can still watch them if it's a legit option you were looking for.

I know and I watched a fair few Wasps games that way before everything happened, but the existence of that adds an extra layer of discouragement to actually getting a BT sub.

If you could get a season pass to view all games via PRTV I'd do that or if BT actually broadcast all the games they have the rights to (and to which Australia and American viewers all have access to).

Yeah, fair enough. I could never justify a BT sport subscription these days, give I don't watch the football and LI are rarely on. Would much rather customised options on the broadcast front and hopefully that will be the future, rather than these traditional packages.

I tend to go less than legitimate on the BT televised games and will cough up on PRTV for the non televised ones.

[Lobby]

In the backs Ma'asi - White is looking like a great centre option, big lad capable of crashing it up, but he's not just a bosher. Makes some cracking defensive reads, has an eye for a line and is picking up a fair few try assists. Bracken (yes, son of), looks like he could be the next bright young spark at 9 we all want to be picking up caps

Up front Chessum's younger brother has been impressing at lock. I'd expect to see the pair of them packing down for the senior team at some point in the near future. Fisilau continues to show himself as a versatile and dogged back rower. The four props are absolute monsters, huge young men. However, that only counts for so much. There's a long line of big young props whose scrummaging just didn't make it to the senior game. McArthur seems to have the most hype.

Did you forget Tristan Woodman who was a real handful in the back row and got player of the match making his U20 debut? He looks a real prospect, and was picked in a World XV U18 selection when playing for the U18s last year.

I was aiming for a sort fo aggregate over the 3 games played so far. If he performs like that over the next couple, I'd definitely stick him on the list.

Fair enough. I thought he was impressive so hope he gets picked again.

[geordie_6]

Any in particular to watch out for in the u20s?

In the backs Ma'asi - White is looking like a great centre option, big lad capable of crashing it up, but he's not just a bosher. Makes some cracking defensive reads, has an eye for a line and is picking up a fair few try assists. Bracken (yes, son of), looks like he could be the next bright young spark at 9 we all want to be picking up caps

Up front Chessum's younger brother has been impressing at lock. I'd expect to see the pair of them packing down for the senior team at some point in the near future. Fisilau continues to show himself as a versatile and dogged back rower. The four props are absolute monsters, huge young men. However, that only counts for so much. There's a long line of big young props whose scrummaging just didn't make it to the senior game. McArthur seems to have the most hype.

Thanks mate. Ma'asi-White stood out from what I saw in highlights yesterday. I was impressed he chose to put the ball to his winger for a guaranteed try rather than trying to ride the contact himself when close.

[Joost]

Ooofff, we made hard work of that! Anyway, some immediate thoughts in no particular order:

First-up and cover defence both much-improved from the first two matches, how good were the backrow over the ball in defence. All of Wales’ points were gifts from England when we had the ball.

JVP had a good game, kicking on-point (one shanked clearance aside) and cleared rucks quickly when we had the ball. Get Youngs’ retirement party in the diary!

Farrell’s goalkicking has become an issue (missed regulation penalties here and against the Scots at key moments), if he‘s no longer a reliable goalkicker his place in the team has to come into question.

Really pleased with the reaction straight after going behind.

Farrell and Slade still kicking the ball away in good attacking positions, not as much as the last two weeks but one of those grubbers straight into the oppo’s legs is going to cost us sooner rather than later.

Hope we can pull out a big performance against France, we’re going to need it to have a creditable 6N.

[Lobby]

Ooofff, we made hard work of that! Anyway, some immediate thoughts in no particular order:

First-up and cover defence both much-improved from the first two matches, how good were the backrow over the ball in defence. All of Wales’ points were gifts from England when we had the ball.

JVP had a good game, kicking on-point (one shanked clearance aside) and cleared rucks quickly when we had the ball. Get Youngs’ retirement party in the diary!

Farrell’s goalkicking has become an issue (missed regulation penalties here and against the Scots at key moments), if he‘s no longer a reliable goalkicker his place in the team has to come into question.

Really pleased with the reaction straight after going behind.

Farrell and Slade still kicking the ball away in good attacking positions, not as much as the last two weeks but one of those grubbers straight into the oppo’s legs is going to cost us sooner rather than later.

Hope we can pull out a big performance against France, we’re going to need it to have a creditable 6N.

Farrell's missed kicks cost us another 15 points; 35 - 10 would have looked a lot better than 20 - 10, and would have been a better reflection of England's dominance.

[el capitan]

Defensively we were good, I like that we're trying to play at real pace and in flashes you see the makings of a good team, but England desperately need to get some control on proceedings. We struggle to turn what seems like open play dominance into concerted pressure and points, we'll overplay at the wrong moment, go negative/kick it away at the wrong moment, our set piece is a bit shaky, and in general need to be a bit more precise and have a bit more direction to what we do.

Needs sizeable improvement again to have a chance in the last two fixtures, but you never know...

[dpedin]

Defensively we were good, I like that we're trying to play at real pace and in flashes you see the makings of a good team, but England desperately need to get some control on proceedings. We struggle to turn what seems like open play dominance into concerted pressure and points, we'll overplay at the wrong moment, go negative/kick it away at the wrong moment, our set piece is a bit shaky, and in general need to be a bit more precise and have a bit more direction to what we do.

Needs sizeable improvement again to have a chance in the last two fixtures, but you never know...

Farrell played too deep and him and Slade too keen to boot the ball away rather than play through the hands and recycle. Against Ireland and France kicking the ball away will just bring pressure onto you, as it did when playing Scotland, whereas Wales didn't have a feckin clue what to do with the ball. If you play same game plan against France and Ireland they will run you ragged returning the ball. You need Smith at 10 who plays flatter off the 9 and will give you more front foot ball, Farrell lying deep just brings defences onto your backs and they end up kicking. Also neither will kick so much ball to Steward and Watson looked a bit shaky when ball was punted down his wing.

[Ovals]

Farrell was utterly awful. Not sure quite what he's bringing to the team now that his goal kicking boots have deserted him. My 6 year old Grandaughter said they they should replace him with 'someone that can aim'.

Our defence was good - backrow immense. And we did score 2 tries using our backline !!

The scoreboard was much closer than it should have been, courtesy of Farrells shockingly poor kicking off the tee.

Still, winning in Cardiff is always worthwhile and it takes a bit of pressure off the coaches - might encourage us to be a bit more adventurous against France - albeit, with Farrell at 10, we'll always struggle.

[JM2K6]

His goal kicking aside, he tackled well and briefly threatened to get the backs moving but then reverted to the mean with shit kicks and poor decision making. Separately, absolutely no sign of the on field leadership England desperately needs and as captain and flyhalf he takes the lion's share of the blame for the meandering bullshit that plagued much of the second half.

I wish this was out of character for a Farrell-plays-10-for-England post mortem but we've seen this story many times before.

[Paddington Bear]

There is a gap in standard between the Prem, of course, but it is increasingly hard to reconcile the Farrell I see in Barnet and the Farrell I see in an England shirt.

The kicking is a much bigger worry than anything else, at points we showed decent ambition in attack. Doesn’t matter who it is, you can’t play international rugby with a 40% goal kicker. My money in the medium ish term is Borthwick opting for Ford.

It is possible to be down about yesterday, it was hardly Ireland France. However, we defended superbly, one brain fart pen and one absolute brain fart intercept was the sum total of Wales’ attack. The back row looks fantastic, set piece was fine (incidentally why do we not compete at defensive lineouts?), scrum did its job and our tries were nicely worked. There’s the bones of a strong side there.

I think we are improving, if Faz had kicked his goals that’s 31-10, if Malins doesn’t throw the pass it’s 31-3 etc. It was a one sided game. Borthwick’s selection calls again came good, Watson was superb. Worse problems to have than being disappointed with how we won in Cardiff.
May be in a minority but I genuinely think we can turn over France and Ireland. Italy have shown both are vulnerable, but we have to make our kicks!

[petej]

There is a gap in standard between the Prem, of course, but it is increasingly hard to reconcile the Farrell I see in Barnet and the Farrell I see in an England shirt.

The kicking is a much bigger worry than anything else, at points we showed decent ambition in attack. Doesn’t matter who it is, you can’t play international rugby with a 40% goal kicker. My money in the medium ish term is Borthwick opting for Ford.

It is possible to be down about yesterday, it was hardly Ireland France. However, we defended superbly, one brain fart pen and one absolute brain fart intercept was the sum total of Wales’ attack. The back row looks fantastic, set piece was fine (incidentally why do we not compete at defensive lineouts?), scrum did its job and our tries were nicely worked. There’s the bones of a strong side there.

I think we are improving, if Faz had kicked his goals that’s 31-10, if Malins doesn’t throw the pass it’s 31-3 etc. It was a one sided game. Borthwick’s selection calls again came good, Watson was superb. Worse problems to have than being disappointed with how we won in Cardiff.
May be in a minority but I genuinely think we can turn over France and Ireland. Italy have shown both are vulnerable, but we have to make our kicks!

No chance Farrell gets dropped. He's captain. He might get shifted to 12. If that is the option I would rather continue with Farrell at 10.

[tc27]

There is a gap in standard between the Prem, of course, but it is increasingly hard to reconcile the Farrell I see in Barnet and the Farrell I see in an England shirt.

The kicking is a much bigger worry than anything else, at points we showed decent ambition in attack. Doesn’t matter who it is, you can’t play international rugby with a 40% goal kicker. My money in the medium ish term is Borthwick opting for Ford.

It is possible to be down about yesterday, it was hardly Ireland France. However, we defended superbly, one brain fart pen and one absolute brain fart intercept was the sum total of Wales’ attack. The back row looks fantastic, set piece was fine (incidentally why do we not compete at defensive lineouts?), scrum did its job and our tries were nicely worked. There’s the bones of a strong side there.

I think we are improving, if Faz had kicked his goals that’s 31-10, if Malins doesn’t throw the pass it’s 31-3 etc. It was a one sided game. Borthwick’s selection calls again came good, Watson was superb. Worse problems to have than being disappointed with how we won in Cardiff.
May be in a minority but I genuinely think we can turn over France and Ireland. Italy have shown both are vulnerable, but we have to make our kicks!

I have to say it may be copium but I am inclined to agree. The defence was very good (as it was vs Italy)..yes teams can make yards against us going wide but that a price worth paying for shutting down the channels which teans mostly try and attack through. The backrow is nicely balanced with some real dynamism and physicality (not playing locks at 6 helps). Youngs has being binned and England now have good players at 12 and 15. The issues at 10 are frustrating but its just a selection issue that could be fixed if the will existed.

Also think some of the neutrals laying it on a bit thick with the 'my eyes are bleeding' stuff.

[geordie_6]

One positive from yesterday was, other than the sealing off offence which gifted them 3 points, we seemed to cut out the brain dead penalties.

[Paddington Bear]

Also think some of the neutrals laying it on a bit thick with the 'my eyes are bleeding' stuff.

Scotland winning two games in a row for the first time in 25 years and their fans proceeding to declare themselves the spiritual guardians of high quality flowing rugby is a little on the nose

[dpedin]

Also think some of the neutrals laying it on a bit thick with the 'my eyes are bleeding' stuff.

Scotland winning two games in a row for the first time in 25 years and their fans proceeding to declare themselves the spiritual guardians of high quality flowing rugby is a little on the nose

I was actually comparing it to the Italy v Ireland game! The difference in ambition and skills level between the two games yesterday was enormous. I enjoyed the first game and with a bit of luck the Italians could have done even better but at least gave it a go and played some really good rugby at home. They played with a verve, skill level and enthusiasm completely missing from the the Welsh team at home. Both Scotland and Ireland eventually ran Wales ragged over the 80mins - England could and should have done the same but lacked the skill set and ambition to do so.

Let's be honest the Wales v England game was a brutal watch and was like stepping back in time watching pretty poor and unambitious rugby. I think I saw one proper backs set move executed properly in the whole game unless you count box kicks?

[Dragster]

There is a gap in standard between the Prem, of course, but it is increasingly hard to reconcile the Farrell I see in Barnet and the Farrell I see in an England shirt.

The kicking is a much bigger worry than anything else, at points we showed decent ambition in attack. Doesn’t matter who it is, you can’t play international rugby with a 40% goal kicker. My money in the medium ish term is Borthwick opting for Ford.

It is possible to be down about yesterday, it was hardly Ireland France. However, we defended superbly, one brain fart pen and one absolute brain fart intercept was the sum total of Wales’ attack. The back row looks fantastic, set piece was fine (incidentally why do we not compete at defensive lineouts?), scrum did its job and our tries were nicely worked. There’s the bones of a strong side there.

I think we are improving, if Faz had kicked his goals that’s 31-10, if Malins doesn’t throw the pass it’s 31-3 etc. It was a one sided game. Borthwick’s selection calls again came good, Watson was superb. Worse problems to have than being disappointed with how we won in Cardiff.
May be in a minority but I genuinely think we can turn over France and Ireland. Italy have shown both are vulnerable, but we have to make our kicks!

No chance Farrell gets dropped. He's captain. He might get shifted to 12. If that is the option I would rather continue with Farrell at 10.

Completely agree, we’re so much better with a 12 playing-
It’s just exposing more and more how bad Faz is and that he’s being carried as an automatic selection who is never subbed. Ever.

[sockwithaticket]

Also think some of the neutrals laying it on a bit thick with the 'my eyes are bleeding' stuff.

Scotland winning two games in a row for the first time in 25 years and their fans proceeding to declare themselves the spiritual guardians of high quality flowing rugby is a little on the nose

Considering how easily accusations of arrogance slip off their tongues, it is a bit much.

Yesterday's game was fine. It's not going to be long remembered as anything other than Borthwick's first 'proper' win (Italy at home is pretty much a banker even with their recent improvements), but it was a long way from eye bleeding.

[sockwithaticket]

Also think some of the neutrals laying it on a bit thick with the 'my eyes are bleeding' stuff.

Scotland winning two games in a row for the first time in 25 years and their fans proceeding to declare themselves the spiritual guardians of high quality flowing rugby is a little on the nose

I was actually comparing it to the Italy v Ireland game! The difference in ambition and skills level between the two games yesterday was enormous. I enjoyed the first game and with a bit of luck the Italians could have done even better but at least gave it a go and played some really good rugby at home. They played with a verve, skill level and enthusiasm completely missing from the the Welsh team at home. Both Scotland and Ireland eventually ran Wales ragged over the 80mins - England could and should have done the same but lacked the skill set and ambition to do so.

Let's be honest the Wales v England game was a brutal watch and was like stepping back in time watching pretty poor and unambitious rugby. I think I saw one proper backs set move executed properly in the whole game unless you count box kicks?

Do fuck off. They're often fleeting and apparently the result of the players doing their own thing, but there have been some briliant moments of skill on display. The idea that the players are skill deficient is a fantasy.

I'd also venture that it's hardly a surprise a new coaching regime hasn't managed to get us playing champagne rugby within 3 games, particularly after the mess Jones left.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

There is a gap in standard between the Prem, of course, but it is increasingly hard to reconcile the Farrell I see in Barnet and the Farrell I see in an England shirt.

He just seems to struggle at the higher level. Yes his attitude and desire are real positives, but the lack of skill, the lack of athletic talent and the errors are bloody annoying. Many don't get 10 caps with the downsides he brings

His opening contribution is a charged down kick. Some players would have got the kick right, some players would have dropped the ball off to Slade giving him a 1 on 1 in lots of space Vs Ken Owens. And we have to endure the Captain Clunky option. It's probably not easy to see Slade as an option, and Sinckler is rather getting in the way, but an inability to read what's on (especially already having made his mind up minutes earlier what the play will be regardless) and to make errors in execution sum up far too much of his test career

[SaintK]

Also think some of the neutrals laying it on a bit thick with the 'my eyes are bleeding' stuff.

Scotland winning two games in a row for the first time in 25 years and their fans proceeding to declare themselves the spiritual guardians of high quality flowing rugby is a little on the nose

I was actually comparing it to the Italy v Ireland game! The difference in ambition and skills level between the two games yesterday was enormous. I enjoyed the first game and with a bit of luck the Italians could have done even better but at least gave it a go and played some really good rugby at home. They played with a verve, skill level and enthusiasm completely missing from the the Welsh team at home. Both Scotland and Ireland eventually ran Wales ragged over the 80mins - England could and should have done the same but lacked the skill set and ambition to do so.

Let's be honest the Wales v England game was a brutal watch and was like stepping back in time watching pretty poor and unambitious rugby. I think I saw one proper backs set move executed properly in the whole game unless you count box kicks?

Ahh the Scottish mask of humility is slipping I see.
Enjoy your time in the sun. It's usually quite fleeting

[dpedin]

Scotland winning two games in a row for the first time in 25 years and their fans proceeding to declare themselves the spiritual guardians of high quality flowing rugby is a little on the nose

I was actually comparing it to the Italy v Ireland game! The difference in ambition and skills level between the two games yesterday was enormous. I enjoyed the first game and with a bit of luck the Italians could have done even better but at least gave it a go and played some really good rugby at home. They played with a verve, skill level and enthusiasm completely missing from the the Welsh team at home. Both Scotland and Ireland eventually ran Wales ragged over the 80mins - England could and should have done the same but lacked the skill set and ambition to do so.

Let's be honest the Wales v England game was a brutal watch and was like stepping back in time watching pretty poor and unambitious rugby. I think I saw one proper backs set move executed properly in the whole game unless you count box kicks?

Do fuck off. They're often fleeting and apparently the result of the players doing their own thing, but there have been some briliant moments of skill on display. The idea that the players are skill deficient is a fantasy.

I'd also venture that it's hardly a surprise a new coaching regime hasn't managed to get us playing champagne rugby within 3 games, particularly after the mess Jones left.

So it made your eyes bleed too? I wasn't looking for champagne rugby but taking advantage of overlaps with ball in hand in the oppo 22 isn't too much to ask for? For me changing Farrell for Smith would make a huge difference for England and how they play. Giving him 45 seconds at the end of the game was a crime given how poorly Farrell was playing. Wales were never going to score or even get close to the England 22 unless they passed to LVZ again so I would have thought giving Smith the last 20 mins would have been ideal opportunity to see how he went with a proper 12 on the pitch instead of having Farrell there. England could and should have put another 20'ish points on Wales with a bit more ambition.

[Dragster]

There is a gap in standard between the Prem, of course, but it is increasingly hard to reconcile the Farrell I see in Barnet and the Farrell I see in an England shirt.

He just seems to struggle at the higher level. Yes his attitude and desire are real positives, but the lack of skill, the lack of athletic talent and the errors are bloody annoying. Many don't get 10 caps with the downsides he brings

His opening contribution is a charged down kick. Some players would have got the kick right, some players would have dropped the ball off to Slade giving him a 1 on 1 in lots of space Vs Ken Owens. And we have to endure the Captain Clunky option. It's probably not easy to see Slade as an option, and Sinckler is rather getting in the way, but an inability to read what's on (especially already having made his mind up minutes earlier what the play will be regardless) and to make errors in execution sum up far too much of his test career

He’s slow and lacks talent, but his rote learning of the basics has made him. Great attitude in training, get fit, tackling, physicality, kicking. Things you can learn, but he’s not a natural player outside strike moves and first phase.

If the placekicking deserts him he’s farked. But still guaranteed to play.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

There is a gap in standard between the Prem, of course, but it is increasingly hard to reconcile the Farrell I see in Barnet and the Farrell I see in an England shirt.

He just seems to struggle at the higher level. Yes his attitude and desire are real positives, but the lack of skill, the lack of athletic talent and the errors are bloody annoying. Many don't get 10 caps with the downsides he brings

His opening contribution is a charged down kick. Some players would have got the kick right, some players would have dropped the ball off to Slade giving him a 1 on 1 in lots of space Vs Ken Owens. And we have to endure the Captain Clunky option. It's probably not easy to see Slade as an option, and Sinckler is rather getting in the way, but an inability to read what's on (especially already having made his mind up minutes earlier what the play will be regardless) and to make errors in execution sum up far too much of his test career

He’s slow and lacks talent, but his rote learning of the basics has made him. Great attitude in training, get fit, tackling, physicality, kicking. Things you can learn, but he’s not a natural player outside strike moves and first phase.

If the placekicking deserts him he’s farked. But still guaranteed to play.

His work ethic, physically, skills wise and watching/learning are all outstanding. And I'd still pick Ford (or Smith if Ford was unavailable) without a moment of hesitation

[sockwithaticket]

I was actually comparing it to the Italy v Ireland game! The difference in ambition and skills level between the two games yesterday was enormous. I enjoyed the first game and with a bit of luck the Italians could have done even better but at least gave it a go and played some really good rugby at home. They played with a verve, skill level and enthusiasm completely missing from the the Welsh team at home. Both Scotland and Ireland eventually ran Wales ragged over the 80mins - England could and should have done the same but lacked the skill set and ambition to do so.

Let's be honest the Wales v England game was a brutal watch and was like stepping back in time watching pretty poor and unambitious rugby. I think I saw one proper backs set move executed properly in the whole game unless you count box kicks?

Do fuck off. They're often fleeting and apparently the result of the players doing their own thing, but there have been some briliant moments of skill on display. The idea that the players are skill deficient is a fantasy.

I'd also venture that it's hardly a surprise a new coaching regime hasn't managed to get us playing champagne rugby within 3 games, particularly after the mess Jones left.

So it made your eyes bleed too? I wasn't looking for champagne rugby but taking advantage of overlaps with ball in hand in the oppo 22 isn't too much to ask for? For me changing Farrell for Smith would make a huge difference for England and how they play. Giving him 45 seconds at the end of the game was a crime given how poorly Farrell was playing. Wales were never going to score or even get close to the England 22 unless they passed to LVZ again so I would have thought giving Smith the last 20 mins would have been ideal opportunity to see how he went with a proper 12 on the pitch instead of having Farrell there. England could and should have put another 20'ish points on Wales with a bit more ambition.

No it didn't. It was hardly the most free-flowing match, but it was also a very long way from some of the genuinely eye-bleedingly bad fare the 6N can throw up. It was below average game in terms of spectacle, but anyone saying more than that either hasn't watched truly shit rugby or is over-egging things for narrative reasons.

I am an on record Farrell dismissive. I don't want him in the team in any position. Ford was good enough and senior enough to play around his deficiencies as a 12, but he was always a square peg in a round hole and Smith is clearly a junior partner when they're paired to the detriment of the team. Smith should've been 10 for the last couple of matches. I live in hope that Ford might displace Farrell for the last couple of rounds of the tournament now that he's fit again. The bitter irony of Borthwich apparently only trusting Smith for less than a minute is we've now got a 9 and 12 combo that should give him the best opportunity to shine. The coaching focus is clearly on set piece and defence. Certainly we've improved on the latter, though given how often he shot out and ruined the integrity of the line against you lot Farrell being taken out of 12 might be a bigger fix than any coaching... In the absence of an apparent attack focus, the creative talent of Smith should be a godsend and yet we're squandering it.

[JM2K6]

I don't think Farrell lacks talent. I think he lacks the raw athleticism of a lot of internationals, but he's certainly able to play in a way that minimises his weaknesses.

I think that with the right approach to the game, Farrell is a great asset to England. One of his biggest problems is that he seems to need to be top dog all the time. As a ten that's fine up until the point where he's making weird decisions and trying to be the point of difference rather than facilitating those around him. At 12, it's hugely frustrating because he doesn't seem to be willing to get his head down and do the dirty work in terms of what a centre should be able to do, and instead just wants to be another 10 demanding the ball half the time so he can be the primary decision maker, or the big shot merchant in defence to the detriment of the system.

Farrell is far too good for Saracens for this to be a simple case of him not being good enough. I get that it's not international rugby but he's starred in big European matches over and over. My working theory on this is that it's an ego thing, and that the ego comes through more at international level than at club level. He's spent a long time at Saracens surrounded by players and coaches who all work hard to make the machine work and his job is to conduct the machine, but within set limits and with players around him who are just as important. At international level it feels like he thinks it need to be all about him, the captaincy probably adds a huge amount to that, and the years of having smoke blown up his arse about being a world class 10 despite his deeply inconsistent performances in that shirt for England can't have helped him remain humble.

Ultimately that's all guesswork. I do honestly, genuinely believe that Farrell can be an excellent 12 for England with a change in how he is used and what he is willing to do. He is a big bloke who clearly hits hard and has shown a deep understanding of the sport. It absolutely baffles me that time and again he plays 12 and doesn't hit a hard line even once. You watch super rugby over the years and there's been a lot of less talented, smaller players who are willing to hit those lines, keep defences honest, and work on their running game - there's absolutely no reason why he couldn't do the same. You keep his passing and kicking and defence and leadership (not captaincy) but in service to the team, and his primary role has to be understood better.

He's had far too many bad games at 10 for England for me to want him there. He can play well at 10 - I hated Ford being dropped for the Aussie game at the world cup but it produced a superb horses-for-courses display - but by far his best run of form and worth to the team has come from 12, and if he does have poor games there it's not quite as critical as if he was at 10.

It seems like such a strange thing to say but I really believe that if Farrell was treated like any other player, told he was a choice only at 12, and told he was genuinely in competition with a bunch of players and starting at a disadvantage because of their running ability, we'd get the best out of him. Give him something to prove and an area of his game to work on. Get him away from the captaincy, make him a replaceable part of the leadership group, so that he can still be a benefit while not feeling safe in the shirt.

He is a very good rugby player in the right scenario and I really think it wouldn't take much for him to be a live option for England as a 12 no matter who plays 10. I do think it's likely a step too far for him to be England's best option as 10 moving forward. Then again after the first 15 minutes it looked like he'd gotten the right idea - at least until his instincts kicked in.

[Biffer]

Being an arse in the wrong thread

[sockwithaticket]

Some of these English and Welsh fellas on here get a bit nippy if you say they played a shit game, don’t they?

How about you get the fuck out of our thread if you're just going to be a prick?

It's more the supercilious tone of supporters of a team who are 0 in 5 against the likes of Ireland, South Africa and New Zealand that rankles.

[Paddington Bear]

Also think some of the neutrals laying it on a bit thick with the 'my eyes are bleeding' stuff.

Scotland winning two games in a row for the first time in 25 years and their fans proceeding to declare themselves the spiritual guardians of high quality flowing rugby is a little on the nose

I was actually comparing it to the Italy v Ireland game! The difference in ambition and skills level between the two games yesterday was enormous. I enjoyed the first game and with a bit of luck the Italians could have done even better but at least gave it a go and played some really good rugby at home. They played with a verve, skill level and enthusiasm completely missing from the the Welsh team at home. Both Scotland and Ireland eventually ran Wales ragged over the 80mins - England could and should have done the same but lacked the skill set and ambition to do so.

Let's be honest the Wales v England game was a brutal watch and was like stepping back in time watching pretty poor and unambitious rugby. I think I saw one proper backs set move executed properly in the whole game unless you count box kicks?

England left a bonus point out there, but if we’d made our kicks the scoreline would have been broadly the same as Scotland’s against them.
England going to Cardiff is a mental challenge and never really leads to flowing rugby. It was no classic but it was fine and as others have said, by no means plumbing the depths NH rugby can at times. It isn’t true Ireland ran them ragged at the end, they blew them away in the first 20.

I’m thoroughly enjoying watching Italy play - I think we all are. But they can play with greater freedom as they’ve got nothing to lose, not the case for us. Oh, and they got spanked in one of their three games by a side that are apparently awful.

[Paddington Bear]

Some of these English and Welsh fellas on here get a bit nippy if you say they played a shit game, don’t they?

It’s a Scotland match day - don’t you need to start queuing up your complaints about the ref so they’re all ready for if you go behind?

[sockwithaticket]

Scotland winning two games in a row for the first time in 25 years and their fans proceeding to declare themselves the spiritual guardians of high quality flowing rugby is a little on the nose

I was actually comparing it to the Italy v Ireland game! The difference in ambition and skills level between the two games yesterday was enormous. I enjoyed the first game and with a bit of luck the Italians could have done even better but at least gave it a go and played some really good rugby at home. They played with a verve, skill level and enthusiasm completely missing from the the Welsh team at home. Both Scotland and Ireland eventually ran Wales ragged over the 80mins - England could and should have done the same but lacked the skill set and ambition to do so.

Let's be honest the Wales v England game was a brutal watch and was like stepping back in time watching pretty poor and unambitious rugby. I think I saw one proper backs set move executed properly in the whole game unless you count box kicks?

England left a bonus point out there, but if we’d made our kicks the scoreline would have been broadly the same as Scotland’s against them.
England going to Cardiff is a mental challenge and never really leads to flowing rugby. It was no classic but it was fine and as others have said, by no means plumbing the depths NH rugby can at times. It isn’t true Ireland ran them ragged at the end, they blew them away in the first 20.

I’m thoroughly enjoying watching Italy play - I think we all are. But they can play with greater freedom as they’ve got nothing to lose, not the case for us. Oh, and they got spanked in one of their three games by a side that are apparently awful.

Mmm. I shan't name and shame, but one poster declared our game yesterday as being between the two worst teams in the competition. I know everyone's enjoying Italy no longer rolling over, however, the idea that they're not still firmly part of that bottom two is risible.

[tc27]

Anyway really looking forward to the games new spiritual guardians showing us how it's done at 3pm.

[JM2K6]

Some of these English and Welsh fellas on here get a bit nippy if you say they played a shit game, don’t they?

Pleasing to see any pretence that arrogance and condescension is a particularly English trait being fucked straight into a bin the minute Scotland wins two consecutive 6N matches.

[Ovals]

Scotland winning two games in a row for the first time in 25 years and their fans proceeding to declare themselves the spiritual guardians of high quality flowing rugby is a little on the nose

I was actually comparing it to the Italy v Ireland game! The difference in ambition and skills level between the two games yesterday was enormous. I enjoyed the first game and with a bit of luck the Italians could have done even better but at least gave it a go and played some really good rugby at home. They played with a verve, skill level and enthusiasm completely missing from the the Welsh team at home. Both Scotland and Ireland eventually ran Wales ragged over the 80mins - England could and should have done the same but lacked the skill set and ambition to do so.

Let's be honest the Wales v England game was a brutal watch and was like stepping back in time watching pretty poor and unambitious rugby. I think I saw one proper backs set move executed properly in the whole game unless you count box kicks?

England left a bonus point out there, but if we’d made our kicks the scoreline would have been broadly the same as Scotland’s against them.
England going to Cardiff is a mental challenge and never really leads to flowing rugby. It was no classic but it was fine and as others have said, by no means plumbing the depths NH rugby can at times. It isn’t true Ireland ran them ragged at the end, they blew them away in the first 20.

I’m thoroughly enjoying watching Italy play - I think we all are. But they can play with greater freedom as they’ve got nothing to lose, not the case for us. Oh, and they got spanked in one of their three games by a side that are apparently awful.

It was a bit turgid at times but nowhere near as bad as many 6N games I;ve watched. We controlled the game throughout and recorded our best win in Wales for an age, despite missing almost every kick at goal. And, for all their faults, Wales defended pretty well for the most part. At this stage in our development I think the win was more important than being very entertaining - England are still at the stage of getting their basics in order to provide a platform to work from.

It'll be interesting to see how we play against France - I think we'll need to show a bit more in attack against them. We certainly won't shut down their attack as comfortably as we did the Welsh.

[sockwithaticket]

Johnny Hill's looking more and more normal (relatively speaking) the longer he spends up North. Sorted out his shit facial hair and now growing the stuff on his head out just a touch and sans mullet.

What minute will Sale first go down to 14 men?

[Paddington Bear]

I don't think Farrell lacks talent. I think he lacks the raw athleticism of a lot of internationals, but he's certainly able to play in a way that minimises his weaknesses.

I think that with the right approach to the game, Farrell is a great asset to England. One of his biggest problems is that he seems to need to be top dog all the time. As a ten that's fine up until the point where he's making weird decisions and trying to be the point of difference rather than facilitating those around him. At 12, it's hugely frustrating because he doesn't seem to be willing to get his head down and do the dirty work in terms of what a centre should be able to do, and instead just wants to be another 10 demanding the ball half the time so he can be the primary decision maker, or the big shot merchant in defence to the detriment of the system.

Farrell is far too good for Saracens for this to be a simple case of him not being good enough. I get that it's not international rugby but he's starred in big European matches over and over. My working theory on this is that it's an ego thing, and that the ego comes through more at international level than at club level. He's spent a long time at Saracens surrounded by players and coaches who all work hard to make the machine work and his job is to conduct the machine, but within set limits and with players around him who are just as important. At international level it feels like he thinks it need to be all about him, the captaincy probably adds a huge amount to that, and the years of having smoke blown up his arse about being a world class 10 despite his deeply inconsistent performances in that shirt for England can't have helped him remain humble.

Ultimately that's all guesswork. I do honestly, genuinely believe that Farrell can be an excellent 12 for England with a change in how he is used and what he is willing to do. He is a big bloke who clearly hits hard and has shown a deep understanding of the sport. It absolutely baffles me that time and again he plays 12 and doesn't hit a hard line even once. You watch super rugby over the years and there's been a lot of less talented, smaller players who are willing to hit those lines, keep defences honest, and work on their running game - there's absolutely no reason why he couldn't do the same. You keep his passing and kicking and defence and leadership (not captaincy) but in service to the team, and his primary role has to be understood better.

He's had far too many bad games at 10 for England for me to want him there. He can play well at 10 - I hated Ford being dropped for the Aussie game at the world cup but it produced a superb horses-for-courses display - but by far his best run of form and worth to the team has come from 12, and if he does have poor games there it's not quite as critical as if he was at 10.

It seems like such a strange thing to say but I really believe that if Farrell was treated like any other player, told he was a choice only at 12, and told he was genuinely in competition with a bunch of players and starting at a disadvantage because of their running ability, we'd get the best out of him. Give him something to prove and an area of his game to work on. Get him away from the captaincy, make him a replaceable part of the leadership group, so that he can still be a benefit while not feeling safe in the shirt.

He is a very good rugby player in the right scenario and I really think it wouldn't take much for him to be a live option for England as a 12 no matter who plays 10. I do think it's likely a step too far for him to be England's best option as 10 moving forward. Then again after the first 15 minutes it looked like he'd gotten the right idea - at least until his instincts kicked in.

I think this is a very good, and fair, post.

You may have seen - England stuck on youtube this week the last 20 minutes from the win in Cardiff in 2017. Worth a watch because what a day that was, but also for reminding ourselves how we played when we were probably at our post ‘03 peak.

Ford and Faz worked because they played very wide apart and both have a superb pass on them, meaning the ball could be zipped side to side very quickly and disorienting the defence. Faz and Smith together have played as a more traditional 10/12 partnership, including bumping into each other running the same channel.