The Official English Rugby Thread

[sockwithaticket]

Earl at centre may be a stupid idea, but is it any more stupid than having to line up a 10 - 12 combo using 2 of the 3 diminuitive fly halves in the matchday squad should something happen to Dingwall?

With 6 back rows in the 23 and the backs replacement being specialist scrum and fly halves, any injuries among numbers 12 - 15 on the day will require rejigging the lineup in an unorthodox and profoundly sub-optimal manner. Earl to centre could well be the least worst option.

[Paddington Bear]

That selection is bizarre, both with the starting team and the subs bench, would far rather see Daly at fullback, Sleighthome on the wing and Willis at 8 as for last week.

I can't fathon the logic of having no 2nd row on the bench or Ford at all - it smacks a little of arrogance and the Welsh will be licking their chops at having Smith x2 and Ford all in the back line at some stage.

To be honest in the event of an injury that requires that I think we’re more likely to see Earl in the centres.

I assume Ford is picked after seeing Scotland tear them apart out wide for the purposes of picking up a bonus point. Win the game first then have a charge at the end, any win in Cardiff for England is always a good result

Stuart Barnes did a piece the other day saying they should pick Earl at centre. I’m sure one of the England coaches was quoted as pretty much saying it was a stupid idea as he might be able to run hard from there but would be lost defensively

He’s been banging that drum for a while now, as sock says it’s likely a better option than having M Smith and Ford in a defensive line together (disagree with those lumping F Smith in with the other two’s defence)

[Slick]

Earl at centre may be a stupid idea, but is it any more stupid than having to line up a 10 - 12 combo using 2 of the 3 diminuitive fly halves in the matchday squad should something happen to Dingwall?

With 6 back rows in the 23 and the backs replacement being specialist scrum and fly halves, any injuries among numbers 12 - 15 on the day will require rejigging the lineup in an unorthodox and profoundly sub-optimal manner. Earl to centre could well be the least worst option.

Well maybe, but the point is, as you all understand, what the hell is he doing getting into that possible position.

[Kawazaki]

It's really quite difficult to see what this selection logic is supposed to be.

Scenario 1.
M. Smith gets injured then Daly will move to 15, but then who goes to the wing?

If Freeman moves there then who plays 13?

Scenario 2.
Dingwall gets injured then who plays 12? Does Earl go there and Willis comes on?

Scenario 3.
Itoji or Chessum gets injured then who goes in to play lock?

There's many more scenarios that throw up more potential problems than simply don't exist with a different bench.

[SaintK]

It's really quite difficult to see what this selection logic is supposed to be.

Scenario 1.
M. Smith gets injured then Daly will move to 15, but then who goes to the wing?

If Freeman moves there then who plays 13?

Scenario 2.
Dingwall gets injured then who plays 12? Does Earl go there and Willis comes on?

Scenario 3.
Itoji or Chessum gets injured then who goes in to play lock?

There's many more scenarios that throw up more potential problems than simply don't exist with a different bench.

The more you look at it the more you say WTAF are you doing Borthwick

[Lobby]

It's really quite difficult to see what this selection logic is supposed to be.

Scenario 1.
M. Smith gets injured then Daly will move to 15, but then who goes to the wing?

If Freeman moves there then who plays 13?

Scenario 2.
Dingwall gets injured then who plays 12? Does Earl go there and Willis comes on?

Scenario 3.
Itoji or Chessum gets injured then who goes in to play lock?

There's many more scenarios that throw up more potential problems than simply don't exist with a different bench.

The more you look at it the more you say WTAF are you doing Borthwick

His thinking is pretty clear to be honest. Reffel and Morgan are both excellent at stealing ball at the breakdown, so we need to play 4 7s to counter them, regardless of the other consequences. Ford may be unlikely to feature in the England squad next year, so this is a chance for him to have one last six nations game (rather like starting George for his 100th cap last week). He just hasn't worked through the consequences of having a back line in the final 10 minutes of Ford at 10, F Smith at 12, Daly at 13, Van Poortvliet on the wing and M Smith still floundering about at full back, let alone one or other of Itoje or Chessum not lasting the full 80.

[Paddington Bear]

There’s three tests this summer and I can’t see how at least one of the Smiths doesn’t go with the Lions. Ford gets to 100 caps there and quite possibly could captain as well. Mystifying stuff

[sockwithaticket]

Ford's had a rotten 18 months in terms of injuries, his lack of game time plus being rushed back to England squads while not match fit has certainly impacted his form and the two Smiths are currently justifiably ahead of him in the pecking order. However, the two younger men are not immune to the threat of injury themselves and even if they stay fit, should Ford can put together a decent run of games there's no reason he can't get back to his best and establish himself as England's first choice again. He's 32 in a few days time, not 40. Far too soon to be writing him off, especially in a position like fly half, so there's definitely no need to be putting him on the bench for this fixture and potentially pad out his cap total.

[Kawazaki]

This is the England national team and the 6 Nations championship ffs. You don't use it to toss out caps to hit a quota number because a player is a nice bloke or near to 100 caps.

[Hal Jordan]

This is the England national team and the 6 Nations championship ffs. You don't use it to toss out caps to hit a quota number because a player is a nice bloke or near to 100 caps.

Some people (not me) would say it's just a testing ground for the World Cup campaigns, so who cares?

They are, of course, wrong.

[Ovals]

It's really quite difficult to see what this selection logic is supposed to be.

Scenario 1.
M. Smith gets injured then Daly will move to 15, but then who goes to the wing?

If Freeman moves there then who plays 13?

Scenario 2.
Dingwall gets injured then who plays 12? Does Earl go there and Willis comes on?

Scenario 3.
Itoji or Chessum gets injured then who goes in to play lock?

There's many more scenarios that throw up more potential problems than simply don't exist with a different bench.

Having no cover for 11-15 or for 4/5 - is completely unhinged. It's impossible to rationalise the selection of Ford on the bench with two FHs in the starting XV. We'll probably still win, but it be no thanks to Borther's insane selections.

[Hal Jordan]

It's Dimwit levels of positional selection.

[ASMO]

England U20's playing utterly shit, Wales deservedly winning.

[Lady P]

England U20's playing utterly shit, Wales deservedly winning.

Absolute car crash

[Brazil]

This ref is fucking shocking. We've blown it, but his decisions in the last seven minutes suggest bias

[Brazil]

You cheating saffa cunt

[petej]

This ref is fucking shocking. We've blown it, but his decisions in the last seven minutes suggest bias

This ref is shit. He is crap owes England about 5 minutes, a card and at least 7 points.

[Lady P]

Taff kids getting very chopsy about winning one game.

[sockwithaticket]

I was a little bit annoyed at having to miss the game tonight, sounds like it was actually for the best.

[tc27]

Agree the ref was appalling.

Felt England were incredibly one dimensional though. Getting one of the big uns to run hard at the 10-13 channel didn't work. Wales knew exactly what was coming and flooded the contact area with tacklers. There was no attempt to attack the fringes or out a kick in behind and keep the defense guessing.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

terrific prep to play for England. if plan A isn't working do plan A harder, but sprinkle with some needless errors, ideally give some soft pens away into the bargain

[Hal Jordan]

terrific prep to play for England. if plan A isn't working do plan A harder, but sprinkle with some needless errors, ideally give some soft pens away into the bargain

I hope they were stupid penalties rather than soft, or they'll never grace that Twickenham turf with the big boys

[Rhubarb & Custard]

thing is you can look at the eventual winners this season, France, and concede those wanting to pick big beasts who put in a shift have a point that such can dominate more skilled approaches

[Paddington Bear]

That’s a good reminder, if anyone needed one before tomorrow, of why every England side has to respect a trip to Wales. The mini Welsh showed superb character and defended like Trojans, it felt like so many England Wales games where we have failed to find a plan B.

Ref was utterly appalling, it cost Wales a few sides but was comical against England at the end. Reverse a penalty against England for trying to get the ball off Wales then don’t do anything when Wales start a scrap the play afterward. Was embarrassing to watch.

[geordie_6]

Agree the ref was appalling.

Felt England were incredibly one dimensional though. Getting one of the big uns to run hard at the 10-13 channel didn't work. Wales knew exactly what was coming and flooded the contact area with tacklers. There was no attempt to attack the fringes or out a kick in behind and keep the defense guessing.

Really bizarre given that they were far more varied against Scotland.

[Lobby]

That’s a good reminder, if anyone needed one before tomorrow, of why every England side has to respect a trip to Wales. The mini Welsh showed superb character and defended like Trojans, it felt like so many England Wales games where we have failed to find a plan B.

Ref was utterly appalling, it cost Wales a few sides but was comical against England at the end. Reverse a penalty against England for trying to get the ball off Wales then don’t do anything when Wales start a scrap the play afterward. Was embarrassing to watch.

I particularly enjoyed the ref demanding that England retake their line out for no discernible reason with 4 minutes to go, and then spent another 90 seconds chatting to the Welsh captain without stopping the clock before allowing the game to continue. Even the Welsh commentators thought that was mad.

The Welsh performance was a carbon copy of their game against the Irish where they just defended like mad and won the game off the back of a mixture of Irish errors and stupidity in continually repeating a game plan that patently wasn't working.

[SaintK]

That’s a good reminder, if anyone needed one before tomorrow, of why every England side has to respect a trip to Wales. The mini Welsh showed superb character and defended like Trojans, it felt like so many England Wales games where we have failed to find a plan B.

Ref was utterly appalling, it cost Wales a few sides but was comical against England at the end. Reverse a penalty against England for trying to get the ball off Wales then don’t do anything when Wales start a scrap the play afterward. Was embarrassing to watch.

I particularly enjoyed the ref demanding that England retake their line out for no discernible reason with 4 minutes to go, and then spent another 90 seconds chatting to the Welsh captain without stopping the clock before allowing the game to continue. Even the Welsh commentators thought that was mad.

The Welsh performance was a carbon copy of their game against the Irish where they just defended like mad and won the game off the back of a mixture of Irish errors and stupidity in continually repeating a game plan that patently wasn't working.

Recckon that was one of the all time worst ref performances I've seen at that level. appalling!!!!
Not that England deserved to win having committed 14 unforced errors including 3 that were over the Welsh try line!!!!

[Lobby]

That’s a good reminder, if anyone needed one before tomorrow, of why every England side has to respect a trip to Wales. The mini Welsh showed superb character and defended like Trojans, it felt like so many England Wales games where we have failed to find a plan B.

Ref was utterly appalling, it cost Wales a few sides but was comical against England at the end. Reverse a penalty against England for trying to get the ball off Wales then don’t do anything when Wales start a scrap the play afterward. Was embarrassing to watch.

I particularly enjoyed the ref demanding that England retake their line out for no discernible reason with 4 minutes to go, and then spent another 90 seconds chatting to the Welsh captain without stopping the clock before allowing the game to continue. Even the Welsh commentators thought that was mad.

The Welsh performance was a carbon copy of their game against the Irish where they just defended like mad and won the game off the back of a mixture of Irish errors and stupidity in continually repeating a game plan that patently wasn't working.

Recckon that was one of the all time worst ref performances I've seen at that level. appalling!!!!
Not that England deserved to win having committed 14 unforced errors including 3 that were over the Welsh try line!!!!

Agreed, totally incompetent.

Oh and pace Paddington, the ref did do something when the Welsh started a scrap in the play immediately after the reversed penalty. He sent an English player to the bin.

[Paddington Bear]

I particularly enjoyed the ref demanding that England retake their line out for no discernible reason with 4 minutes to go, and then spent another 90 seconds chatting to the Welsh captain without stopping the clock before allowing the game to continue. Even the Welsh commentators thought that was mad.

The Welsh performance was a carbon copy of their game against the Irish where they just defended like mad and won the game off the back of a mixture of Irish errors and stupidity in continually repeating a game plan that patently wasn't working.

Recckon that was one of the all time worst ref performances I've seen at that level. appalling!!!!
Not that England deserved to win having committed 14 unforced errors including 3 that were over the Welsh try line!!!!

Agreed, totally incompetent.

Oh and pace Paddington, the ref did do something when the Welsh started a scrap in the play immediately after the reversed penalty. He sent an English player to the bin.

Mea culpa

[petej]

terrific prep to play for England. if plan A isn't working do plan A harder, but sprinkle with some needless errors, ideally give some soft pens away into the bargain

This is the way of England rugby. Stop playing with any variation/creativity and pointlessly bosh away

tenor.gif (700.72 KiB) Viewed 681 times

[tc27]

That’s a good reminder, if anyone needed one before tomorrow, of why every England side has to respect a trip to Wales. The mini Welsh showed superb character and defended like Trojans, it felt like so many England Wales games where we have failed to find a plan B.

Ref was utterly appalling, it cost Wales a few sides but was comical against England at the end. Reverse a penalty against England for trying to get the ball off Wales then don’t do anything when Wales start a scrap the play afterward. Was embarrassing to watch.

It's very likely this England side would lose today if going for a slam or a realistic shot at the championship.

[sockwithaticket]

That was satisfying.

Still not convinced by Borthwick's selections. Not sure you get away with the 2 locks, 6 back rows and 3 fly halves against a better team.

George Ford is still absolute quality when he's fit and in form.

Same as last year, we finished the tournament stronger than we started it and that came alongside opening up the style of play. We need our gameplan to play more to the strengths of the players we have.

[Oxbow]

Amidst all the tries Dingwall was unflashily effective again, solid in defence, distributed well, sometimes from first receiver allowing F Smith to play wider. The continued picking of Slade is looking more and more ridiculous given the other options (not just Dingwall) we had available to try out.

[sockwithaticket]

Amidst all the tries Dingwall was unflashily effective again, solid in defence, distributed well, sometimes from first receiver allowing F Smith to play wider. The continued picking of Slade is looking more and more ridiculous given the other options (not just Dingwall) we had available to try out.

Vigorous agreement. He should never have been dropped during the last 6N and it shouldn't have taken this long to reintroduce him to an obviously misfiring midfield.

[Sinkers]

Andy Foode alluding to there being a bit of a player rebellion prior to the Italy game?

[Paddington Bear]

Andy Foode alluding to there being a bit of a player rebellion prior to the Italy game?

Not sure how seriously you can take his shit stirring tbh

Funny tournament. I think we’d have all bitten the hand off anyone offering us four wins in January. The way we went through the gears in the last two games is very promising in terms of talent, cohesion and coaching.

The back row was absolutely world class all tournament, Itoje and Chessum were very strong in the second row, scrum was quality every week (Stuart much improved). Not sure what we do when George retires.

Backs more of a work in progress. Mitchell played much better when allowed to play his normal game, shockingly, F Smith has settled the debate at fly half for a bit, he’s a real talent and sets up exactly as a test 10 needs to. Hopefully we’ve seen the last of Slade in an England shirt, him being fully binned out of the 23 coincided with our best attacking rugby. Lawrence was excellent until his injury.

There’s a really excellent side to be moulded here, hard to claim that this didn’t represent progress. What might have been if we didn’t fall asleep for 20 minutes in Dublin…

[dpedin]

England were every bit as good as Wales were awful. The power of their pack was at last coupled with pace and movement in the backs. However it was a very, very poor Wales performance for whom even the basics of the game seemed to have evaded them. Hard to judge how good England were in all honesty, but far too good for Wales!

[Sandstorm]

Backs more of a work in progress. Mitchell played much better when allowed to play his normal game, shockingly, F Smith has settled the debate at fly half for a bit, he’s a real talent and sets up exactly as a test 10 needs to.

Yes, both looked good behind a very dominant pack.

[sockwithaticket]

F Smith has settled the debate at fly half for a bit, he’s a real talent and sets up exactly as a test 10 needs to.

Has he? We started the second half pretty poorly and he was yanked off quite early, things picked up massively when Ford came on. The middle of the first half wasn't that impressive either. Not all down to either player, obviously, but a fit and firing Ford is still our best fly half while F. Smith is still very green at this level, so I don't think anything's settled at all.

[sockwithaticket]

England were every bit as good as Wales were awful. The power of their pack was at last coupled with pace and movement in the backs. However it was a very, very poor Wales performance for whom even the basics of the game seemed to have evaded them. Hard to judge how good England were in all honesty, but far too good for Wales!

That's where I am with it. You can only beat what's in front of you and we hammered a poor Wales team, but with a couple of their early close calls having gone a different way, our somewhat fluky head led tries not panning out the Cardiff crowd isn't silenced so early and there's a much different scoreline in the offing. We will also never see our forwards that physically dominant against proper opposition. Wales pack being mince is probably why Cunningham-South moving up to second row for most of the game didn't cost us more in the scrum, but I can't picture getting away with that against Scotland or Argentina, let alone France or South Africa.

So although it's nice to put that many points past Wales on their own patch after many of their party-pooping results down the years, I'm not sure too much can be read into it beyond England look best when we steer clear of the eye-bleeding anti-rugby.